with-CHRIS-HAY-01
Barro, Susan Sarandon, Dan Savage>
Donald Trump has already run into a buzz saw with Wisconsin`s robust
conservative establishment recently empowered by the political battles of
the Scott Walker years. Democrat contest examined. Details of the shooting
incident on Capitol Hill. Anti-LGBT laws in focus.>
Bernie Sanders; Democrats; Crime; Police; Shootings; North Carolina;
Georgia; Gay Rights; Civil Rights>
But I really want to be on the right side of history, and this is a shot that we`re not going to have again in my lifetime to have a candidate that`s so morally consistent, makes decisions, whose judgment proves to be true, but does it at a time when it`s not popular, when it`s not comfortable, a candidate whose not taken any money from fracking or Monsanto, or, you know, super PACs or Wall Street or all of the farm, big farm, you known, which all the other candidates have.
And those are issues that are really important to me. So, to have a guy that`s that consistent, that is that clean, is just not going to happen again.
HAYES: You just said on the right side of history, which is interesting to me. I think in certain quarters there`s growing concern that the folks that are into Bernie Sanders have come to despise Hillary Clinton or reject Hillary Clinton and that should she be the nominee, which is as yet undetermined, they will walk away.
SARANDON: That`s been a legitimate concern, because they`ve very passionate and very principled. And...
HAYES: But isn`t that crazy?
If you believe in what he believes in.
SARANDON: Yeah, but she doesn`t. She`s accepted money for all of those people. She doesn`t want to fight for a $15 minimum wage. So, these are people that have not come out before. So, why would we think they would come out for her.
HAYES: You really that?
SARANDON: I think there`s a good possibility. I talk to people who either want to write -- I talk to Republicans who have written him in already. And they just feel like she`s not authentic. That she`s a liar. That they don`t trust her so what difference does it make.
You know, if you`re a small farmer and you`re worried about fracking on your property. In Idaho they just passed a bill where they can frack on private land, and you know that she`s taken money from fracking, why would you think that that`s -- she`s going to have your back?
HAYES: Well, because they make the argument that there are all kinds of politicians, Barack Obama is the one that Hillary Clinton cites all the time, who have done things to effectively reign in industries, or reform industries, that they have taken money from.
SARANDON: I`d like to see that...
HAYES: You don`t buy it at all.
SARANDON: No, I don`t buy it all, because she`s been selling fracking all over the world. There`s her talking about Monsanto and how clean not talking about Roundup or what they put in it or what it`s done to our economy. and they know that jobs are going out, you know, Bernie doesn`t - - voted against NAFTA, you know, TPP, you know all these things coming up that know effect their jobs. And she`s not on the right side of that. She hasn`t voted right.
So, what would you make think that once she gets in she is going to suddenly go against the people that have given her millions and millions of dollars. I think that`s being incredibly naive and ecotistical to think suddenly she`s going to see the right, you know.
HAYES: Right, but isn`t the question always in an election about choices, right. I mean, I think a lot of people think to themselves well if it`s Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, and I think Bernie Sanders probably would think this...
SARANDON: I think Bernie probably would encourage people because he doesn`t have any ego. I think a lot of people are sorry, I can`t bring myself to do that.
HAYES: How about you personally?
SARANDON: I don`t know. I`m going to see what happens.
HAYES: Really?
SARANDON: Really.
HAYES: I cannot believe as you`re watching the, if Donald Trump...
SARANDON: Some people feel Donald Trump will bring the revolution immediately if he gets in then things will really, you know explode.
HAYES: You`re saying the Leninist model of...
SARANDON: Some people feel that.
HAYES: Don`t you think that`s dangerous?
SARANDON: I think what`s going on now. If you think it`s pragmatic to shore up the status quo right now, then you`re not in touch with the status quo. The statue quo is not working, and I think it`s dangerous to think that we can continue the way we are with the militarized police force, with privatized prisons, with the death penalty, with the low minimum wage, with threats to women`s rights and think that you can`t do something huge to turn that around. Because the country is not in good shape if you`re in the middle class. It`s disappearing.
And you look if you want to go see Michael Moore`s documentary, you`ll see it`s pretty funny the way they describe it. But you`ll see that health care and education in all these other countries, we`ve been told for so long that it`s impossible, it`s like we`ve been in this bad relationship and now we have to break up with the guy because we realize we`re worth it.
We should have these things. We have to stop prioritizing war -- and I don`t like the fact she talks about Henry Kissinger as being her go to guy for the stuff that`s happened in Libya and other things I don`t think is good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That was Sanders supporter Susan Sarandon. You can see more of our interview in which we talk about her work with some refugees in Greece and MSNBC.com/allin.
Still to come, Republican presidential candidates are put on the spot. Should guns be allowed in their national convention arena. What they said and who is behind the open carry petition, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: Earlier today there was a very scary moment at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C. Initial reports of shots fired at the Capitol. As they usually are, those reports were foggy and incomplete, lots of chaos. It turns out, according to police, that man who was previously known to security approached the Capitol screening checkpoint in the visitor`s center, which right down there in that video you`re looking at where that guy is looking down, and he took out what appeared to be a weapon and was shot by a police officer.
He has since been identified as Larry Dawson, 67-year-old from Tennessee. And sources tell NBC he had a realistic looking pistol type pellet gun. After being rushed to the hospital he later died.
Now, the only reason this man wasn`t running around potentially with a gun in halls of Congress itself is because there are metal detectors for every person who enters the Capitol. It is, simply put, a gun free zone. And it`s something that even the strident pro-gun lawmakers who work in that building are okay with.
In fact, I`ve talked to them about it on the show. But many of those same lawmakers will be at the Republican National Convention this summer in Cleveland, Ohio where being pro-gun and anti-gun free zone is certainly the majority position. The Quicken Loans Arena, which is hosting the convention, does not allow guns inside even though Ohio is an open carry state.
Now there`s a petition calling on Republican candidates to speak out and allow convention attendees to openly carry firearms inside the convention hall this July.
All three staunchly pro-open carry candidates have now weighed in. Did they stick to their guns? I`ll tell you in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: So, almost 50,000 people who have signed on to a petition calling for the right to openly carry firearms at the Republican National Convention in July. It`s a tough little test to just how strongly held the candidates hold their second amendment positions. It demands that all three Republican presidential hopefuls all notably open-carry and anti-gun free zone advocates urge the RNC to rectify this affront to our Second Amendment freedoms and insist upon a suspension of the Quicken Loan Arena`s unconstitutional gun free zone loophole to allow convention goers to bring their firearms into the convention.
Today, when asked about the issue, Ted Cruz said he would certainly want to get the recommendations from Secret Service.
John Kasich concurred saying "all that matter is what the Secret Service says." While Donald Trump said he would need to read the fine print.
Luckily for Republicans who may not welcome a potentially contested convention with delegated armed to the teeth, but maybe hesitant to speak out against that manifestly terrible idea, this afternoon Secret Service let them off the hook announcing firearms will not be allowed past a predetermined outer perimeter checkpoint.
Now, it appears the petition, which notes the arena`s no gun policy doesn`t even begin to factor in the possibility of an ISIS terrorist attack on the arena during the convention, may have been created more as satire than protest.
The description for the Twitter account apparently linked to the petition reads, quote, "speaking truth to stupid since well, since now."
But if the goal was expert trolling and making Republicans squirm on their interpretation of the Second Amendment and gun safety, well, well done.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS SORO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR EQUALITY NORTH CAROLINA: HB2 is the most sweeping anti-LGBT bill in the nation and it will not stand the test of time or the test of federal court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Today, a coalition of LGBT groups and activists, including the ACLU, said they were suing to stop the implementation of an anti-gay law signed last week by North Carolina Republican Governor Pat McCrory, which overrules local LGBT non-discrimination protections and explicitly limits which bathrooms transgender people can use.
That law has been met with an outpouring of outrage and disapproval not just from voters and activists on the street, but also from corporations, including Apple, IBM, Google, the NBA, American Airlines, Dow Chemical and our parent company Comcast NBC/Universal.
Now, in Georgia lawmakers passed also an anti-gay bill, a bill that like the one in North Carolina faced widespread condemnation from the business community, but there the Republican Governor Nathan Deal defied social conservatives announcing today he would veto the bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATHAN DEAL, GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA: I do not think that we have to discriminate against anyone to protect the faith-based community in Georgia. It is about the character of our state and the character of our people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now nationally syndicated sex advice columnist Dan Savage, editorial director of the Seattle Alternative Newspaper, The Stranger.
Dan, what`s your understanding of what happened in these two states in terms of the different outcomes we got?
DAN SAVAGE, EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, THE STRANGER: Before I get to that can I just say I`m for Bernie or Hillary or both, and come November I plan to vote for the Democratic nominee whoever it is, because of the lesser of two evils is less evil. And I don`t think Donald will bring the revolution.
What happened differently in those two states is in one state you had a governor who is facing re-election, facing a conservative electorate and was willing to really knife vulnerable people in his state for political advantage.
And you had a governor in Georgia who had a little bit more time to think about it, and decided to veto this legislation under pressure, particularly from Hollywood, a whole bunch of production companies said that they would -- and famous directors and studios said they would not produce films in Georgia anymore if this was passed into law.
And North Carolina`s just beginning to come under the assault, the brunt of the assault it`s going to come under from activists, from corporations, from businesses, from its own university system. Universities have a hard time attracting, or like to be able to attract talent. And a lot of that talent is lesbian, gay, bi, or trans. And people are not going to move to a state where they are not allowed to use the goddamn bathroom.
HAYES: For folks that have not been following that part of this issue, talk for a moment about how much these forces have focused on the bathroom as the kind of site of this political battle.
SAVAGE: They`re just repackaging old crap in a brand new bag. It used to be early in the beginning of the gay rights movement, before it became the LBGT civil rights movement, that social conservatives would scream and yell about predatory gay men, predatory gay men going into bathrooms, seducing boys, raping boys, preying on boys, and they`ve just taken that. And now, they say, it`s predatory straight men -- it`s important to emphasize that point, they say that there`s so such thing has transwomen, that these are straight men in dresses and their whole goal undergoing this transition is to have access to women`s restrooms where they can then prey upon women and girls.
But there are actually arguing that this is straight men doing this. And it`s the same anti-gay calumny, repackaged into a anti-trans calumny and as people get to know more trans people, as trans people come out, as we have this fight, we will win this fight. It`s important to remember that every time we have an anti-gay marriage referendum pass, we saw the needle move in the direction of marriage equality. And as states like North Carolina pass measures like this attacking trans people, it forces the national conversation about who transpeople are and who are the predators in restrooms.
There are many incidents of people being assaulted in restrooms always by cis gendered straight men, not by transwomen.
HAYES: As someone said on Twitter, Cameron Eeposito (ph), I think, you`ve already used a bathroom with a transperson and you were fine.
Dan Savage, thanks for your time. Always.
Up next, it`s time for the reckoning, my reckoning. Who is the blame for Donald Trump? Do not go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: A list of people who have been blamed for the rise of Donald Trump is pretty darn long. It includes GOP presidential candidates like Jeb Bush, tower political figures like Franklin Delano Roosevelt, somehow the Buffalo Bills football team, and of course President Obama.
The New York Times has now given us two new articulations of just who is to blame for Trump`s success. Columnist Nick Kristoff (ph), like many, puts the blame squarely on the media writing that television in particular handed Trump the microphone without adequately fact checking him or rigorously examining his background.
While Nick Comfessore (ph) in a deeply reported piece, argues that GOP elite lost its voters to Trump by ignoring their economic frustrations.
Joining me now to hash out the unified field theory of the rise of Trump is MSNBC contributor Josh Barro, senior edtior at Business Insider; and Jess McIntosh, spokesperson for Emily`s List, which of course has endorsed Hillary Clinton.
So, what do you think of media argument?
JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST SPOKESPERSON: I think that media certainly didn`t help anything, but I`m not here to j`accuse you. I think that the Republican Party did this and they`ve done it slowly over decades. Like, I believe that Lee Atwater started it. I think that Newt Gingrich gave us the tone and call your opponents bizarre weirdos and that okay if that`s how it`s going to win.
I think Karl Rove gave us this divide the elites and pander to that base and make them as big and powerful as they possibly can be, and no one realized that eventually they were going to swallow everything whole.
And then you have Donald Trump himself, who I honestly, like, that man is a phenomenon. He -- if he weren`t who he is -- I mean, Chris Christie has tried this shtick. Lots of people have tried this shtick. He`s real good at it.
JOSH BARRO, BUSINESS INSIDER: You know, I think a lot of these theories can all be true at once.
HAYES: Yes. It`s an over determined phenomenon.
BARRO: Right, voters are for Trump some all sorts of different reasons. Some are upset about trade, some about immigration, some have these racist impulses that Donald Trump is finally letting them let out. These things can all be true.
But I also -- you know, we can`t let the voters off the hook. And I don`t just mean that in the tautological way that like when somebody wins an election it`s because people voted for him. But, you know, everybody has impulses that they try to resist and you know you`re not supposed to eat the second doughnut and sometimes you succeed at that, and sometimes you fail.
Donald Trump is really good at convincing people to be bad. He`s built his whole career on this. Even in his real estate. Like, you`re not supposed to cover everything in brass. You`re not suppose to go around bragging about how much money you have. But Donald Trump does these things and makes them seem joyful.
He talks about greed, which is a sin as a positive thing.
So, I think he`s really found a weakness in the voters as an institution themselves.
HAYES: Yes. But so here`s the argument -- and I guess I`m taking up for the purposes of the media is to blame side of this.
This study of how much -- you know, he has been covered quantitatively more than any other candidate by margins that are very difficult to find precedent for, right, 1.9 billion in, quote, free media.
Now, the key thing I think to add to that is lots of that has been intensely negative. And in fact, as evidence of that, look at his favorables/unfavorables. The guy is like deeply unpopular with the general electorate. He`s, you know, 30 points under water, which is not -- so if this was all pattycake he would not be 30 points...
MCINTOSH: I think the question who created President Trump is completely different than who created this phenomenon that is Donald Trump right now.
I don`t think anybody would be blaming the media if that man actually won the popular vote and the right number of votes...
HAYES: ...blame the media. It`s like, can you blame it more.
MCINTOSH: America has done it. Like, at that point, yeah the media might have -- might be responsible for him having higher name ID, but they`re not responsible for majority of the country wanting to vote for him because the majority does not want to vote for him.
HAYES: People think it is a self-perpetuating machine. This is what I`ve been told in angry conversations I`ve had with viewers of this program -- some of you right now sitting at home watching this yelling at the television, is that -- and I think a good analog is like Kim Kardashian. People talk about Kim Kardashian this way. Like, she`s famous for being famous. It`s like, well, at a certain point she is doing something.
MCINTOSH: Yeah, she`s a really smart businesswoman.
HAYES: Right, there is part of that with Trump as well.
BARRO: Yeah, I know, I mean, the same people who say the media created Trump and by giving him all this coverage they let him get ahead, these are people who look at that coverage and see Trump as self-evidently awful and every extra minute that he talks, he seems worse.
The coverage -- if you looked at it objectively, if you showed somebody just the news segments and didn`t show them the polls or anything, people would assume that this coverage was destroying him, because it is negative.
The problem is these voters, they don`t trust any institutions, including the media.
MCINTOSH: And that`s why fact checking doesn`t matter. Pointing out that he`s lying doesn`t matter, because the person pointing it out is not a trustworthy person.
HAYES: But there is also this -- there is also this way in which in sort of like there is this kind of way that he`s hacked a certain part of the competitive environment in which people need new things, and he creates new things all the time. And that creates attention.
If the goal is to as cynically as possible manipulate attention, he has done that incredibly well. And I don`t think the competitive news media has done any job of resisting that even when editorially there`s some part of them thinking they should.
MCINTOSH: To the point that the news media has become more entertainment based, he was perfectly conditioned to come in and take it over.
So, I think to that extent, yes, the 24 hour cable network, yes all of that did contribute to this environment where Trump could thrive.
But you`ve got to put it on him and you`ve got to put it on the fact that voters are actually deciding.
BARRO: But the other important thing here is he`s not always wrong. A number of the big stinks he has made in this election have been him saying things that other people won`t say that are true, about the way that people buy influence in politics in America. He`s staked out a position on immigration that I quite disagree with but that represents...
HAYES: There was actual demand and appetite for.
BARRO: Right, yeah.
HAYES: And was not being articulated in the way he was articulating it by anyone else.
BARRO: Right. And if somebody had a more respectable way to make a less extreme version of that position.
MCINTOSH: Build the dang fence. We ignored it. Every other Republican have said they wanted to build the dang fence on the border. We were like, oh, that`s cute. But he did it.
HAYES: All right, Josh Barro and Jess McIntosh, thanks for being with me tonight. Appreciate it.
That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.
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