with-CHRIS-HAY-01
Greer, Michelle Goldberg>
tap fast food CEO Andy Puzder for Labor Department, who opposes minimum
wage hikes and wants to replace fast food workers with robots; Union leader
Chuck Jones responds to attack from Trump saying he would like Trump to be
upfront and not to make false hopes that there would be 1,100 jobs saved
from the Indiana Carrier plant; Senator Bernie Sanders on Trump`s attack on
union leader Chuck Jones saying Trump is trying to scare labor movement.
Also, criticizing his pick for Labor Department, saying Puzder is an anti-
worker>
Mad Dog; Military; Veterans; Healthcare; Union; Department of Labor;
Carrier; Chuck Jones; Indianapolis; Rexnord>
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer.
HAYES: Donald Trump called out for giving false hope to the forgotten men, has now picked a fight with him.
CHUCK JONES, CARRIER UNION LEADER: I had all kind of threats and stuff over the years, so I guess got a little more thick skin.
HAYES: As the Trump victory tour continues, union leader Chuck Jones with his response to the President-elect`s provocation.
And Senator Bernie Sanders on Trump`s redefinition of bully pulpit.
Plus, new reporting on Donald Trump`s plan to keep ties to his businesses. The fast food CEO who wants to replace workers with robots tapped to run in the Labor Department. And even more alarm bells over Trump`s pick for National Security Adviser.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that we need to aggressively examine what was going on with General Flynn and his son.
HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.
Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. And we are now 43 days from Donald Trump becoming President of the United States. 24 hours since Trump attacked a labor leader, who had the temerity to call him out. He`s here to respond shortly. And just minutes away from Trump appearing at the third stop on the President-elect`s Victory Tour, tonight`s event is in Des Moines, Iowa. We will monitor the event and bring you the news as warranted. Now, during the campaign and in his victory speech, Trump characterized himself as a champion of working Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Every single American will have the opportunity to realize his or her fullest potential. The forgotten men and women of our country will be forgotten no longer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Today, we learned that Trump will pick a labor secretary who opposes raising the federal minimum wage, and who has spoken enthusiastically about replacing workers with robots. Trump tapping Andy Puzder, the CEO of the fast food company that owns fast food restaurants Carl`s Jr. and Hardee`s, to lead the Labor Department.
Puzder who has paid more than $4.4 million in 2012 has argued strenuously against raising the federal minimum wage which is just $7.25 per hour, arguing that an increase would be bad for workers, because it would force business owners to cut jobs. Earlier this year, he said he wants to create a restaurant where consumers never interact with employees in order to combat rising labor costs. Speaking about the machines that would replace human workers, Puzder told Business Insider, "They`re always polite, they always upsell, they never take a vacation, and never show up late, there`s never a slip and fall or an age, sex or race discrimination case."
Trump may discuss the Puzder pick tonight. He might also once again attack union leader Chuck Jones who represents the Carrier workers, whose jobs Trump pledged to save. After Jones said this week that Trump lied about how many jobs would actually be saved in his deal with Carrier, Trump tweeted, quote, "Chuck Jones, who is {resident of the United Steelworkers 1999, has done a terrible job representing workers. No wonder companies flee country."
And joining me now is Chuck Jones, President of United Steelworkers Local 1999, which represents Carrier workers in Indianapolis. Chuck, before we get to what the President-elect said yesterday and everything, can you just tell me a little bit about yourself and what you do as president of that local, how long have you been doing that -- playing that role?
JONES: Yeah, I`ve been president or vice president of this local since 1985 with exception of three years. So, almost 30 years all together.
HAYES: And I just want -- I mean, just in case it`s not clear to people, you`re not -- you`re not getting rich off this job. You`re not in this job for glamour, fame or bucks?
JONES: No, and the reason that I liked it and the reason I got involved in it, is it`s something different every day, and I got involved because I thought I could make a difference in people`s lives, and, you know, try to do the best I can for people we represent.
HAYES: You know, there`s -- there are folks who Bernie Sanders, who I`m going to speak to, just after you, said that you`re the reason that people know about Carrier`s plan to move jobs overseas and outsource. I mean, you`ve been working this beat -- there`s a picture of you meeting with Governor Mike Pence, now the Vice President-elect. You`ve been working on this for quite some time.
JONES: Yeah, ever since Carrier announced they were going close to the facility in February, we`ve tried to keep it alive, and you guys have helped get the message out there to the American people, of what is going on in this country, as far as people who lost jobs due to corporate greed.
HAYES: So, I want to -- I want you to tell me what it is that -- what has it been like to have the President-elect of United States, arguably one of the most famous people in the country, maybe the world, personally attack you?
JONES: To be quite honest, when I heard the tweet, I laughed, and the guy that was telling me what it was. He sounds serious, and I laughed some more. I mean, my wildest imagination, I never would expected that. And hell, it don`t affect me one way or the another. I`ve had a lot more people say than I have been respected a lot more, say things and Trump`s -- you know, you got to give the man credit, he`s got some spunk in him, so, you know, that`s fine, you know? It ain`t no big deal one way or another.
HAYES: Can you explain when you -- I want to just be clear about what your contention was and why it frustrated you to watch him say what he said when the numbers came out. When you said he lied his ass off, what specifically did you mean by that?
JONES: Well, you know, I would assume being the great negotiator that he`s already says that he is, that he would have known, when he sat down with UTC, how many jobs there were talking about? And the jobs that he was personally involved in, keeping here in Indianapolis is 800, and once again, I want to give him a great amount of thanks for what he did to keep these jobs here in the city, and I thank him once again. But to portray it that it was over 1,100 gave the people some false hope that there were more jobs staying here than the 800 only, because the 350 research and development jobs were counted in when him and Governor Pence kept on saying, 1,100 and some odd, they were already staying here in this city.
Carrier now is to close down in February, and they said at that point in time, the research and development jobs were what will remain here in the city. And then, Trump and Pence tried to take credit for them again. How many times can you take credit for the same jobs staying here in the city? You know, not that many times. So consequently, when two days before he came in, they was putting out everywhere 1,100 and some odd jobs were going to remain in this city, it gave people false hope that they might have a job, for then to find out that, no, the number is 730, bargain unit jobs and 70 supervisory jobs, 800 jobs altogether. It is good, but it wasn`t it.
HAYES: But there were folks -- I mean, there were folks, presumably you had -- who thought their job was staying and it is leaving and you had or someone else had to be the one to break it to them, that actually it`s not going to stay.
JONES: Yeah, and all I asked for was them to be upfront with the people.
HAYES: Yeah.
JONES: You know, in my opinion, what they should have did, is say, "Hey, we got involved with UTC, we were able to save 700 or 800 jobs, 550 are still going to Mexico." It don`t get any simpler than that.
HAYES: Let me ask you this, finally, Chuck. We know the President-elect really likes to watch cable news, he might be watching us right now for all we know, is there a message -- is there something you want to tell him, if you had a chance to meet him face to face?
JONES: Yeah, most certainly. If his goal is to try to keep jobs in this country, I share that goal. I have all my adult life that people here in this country ought to have the right to good-paying jobs and they shouldn`t be leaving for China, Mexico. If he, at any point in time, with Carrier and then one of our other plants, Rexnord, would like to get together and see what we can do collectively to keep jobs in this country, I think it`d be an excellent idea. You know, we`re all going to have disagreements with each other, but if we got a mind, we can focus in on a mind-set that benefits everybody. I think that can be accomplished. So, if he wants to reach out and see what we can do, I`m all aboard.
HAYES: All right. Chuck Jones, thank you. Appreciate it.
Joining me now, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Senator, let me ask you what`s your reaction to the man who is soon to be the most powerful person on the earth, I don`t think that`s hyperbole, using his platform to insult and attack a union president in Indianapolis.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), FORMER DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I mean, I think what can we say, Chris, the word, incredible, unbelievable, is no longer applicable to Mr. Trump. Because he does one crazy thing after another, but to attack a local labor leader in Indianapolis, who has fought valiantly for his workers to protect the jobs of his steelworkers is really unbelievable. But, is as usually the case with Mr. Trump, there`s more beneath the surface, and that is what he was really doing, is I think sending a message to the entire trade union movement that do not stand up and fight for working people or we`re going to go after you. We need to -- in my view, we need to grow the trade union movement in America. We need to make it easier for workers to be able to engage in collective bargaining, and what Trump is saying is exactly the opposite.
HAYES: Yeah, I mean, you know -- I mean, the point you made about how valiantly Chuck has fought for those folks -- those folks in those factories, I mean, you know him. I think you -- the two of you had breakfast on Election Day.
SANDERS: That`s right.
HAYES: And you`ve been pretty invested in the Carrier factory.
SANDERS: Right.
HAYES: In many ways, the reason it was a story, I believe you said was, because of the leadership of Chuck Jones.
SANDERS: Right. Now, Chuck has done a great job, and I think what Mr. Trump has responded to is the very correct and truthful assertions that Chuck Jones has made, and that is, yes, good news, some jobs were saved at Carrier and we`re all happy about that. Bad news is that more than half of the jobs are still going to be outsourced to Monterey, Mexico, where people are paid three bucks an hour, despite Trump`s campaign promise that he would save all of the jobs.
Trump told us he was going to stand up to large corporations who were outsourcing, but he ended up doing in the case of United Technologies and Carrier is give them a tax break. And I think what Trump`s ire comes from, his anger comes from, is that Chuck Jones told the truth.
HAYES: You know, when you talk about what his rhetoric was like on the campaign trail, referring to the President-elect, and what his policies would be like, today, we got his announcement of his nominee for Department of Labor, a business magnate, Mr. Puzder, who runs Carl`s Jr., who doesn`t believe in minimum wage increases. What`s your response to that?
SANDERS: Well, my response is that everybody who voted for Mr. Trump, who believed his campaign promises, who thought that he was really going to stand up to the establishment and fight for working people, please pay attention to the reality of what he`s doing, rather than his campaign rhetoric. I think almost everybody in America, Chris, including many republicans, understand that we need to raise the minimum wage to a living wage, in my view, 15 bucks an hour.
So, he hires somebody who makes his money through fast food by paying people very low wages. Many of these people have to get public assistance from tax payers, through Medicaid, through food stamps. That`s the way this guy does business. This is a guy who thinks the automation should replace higher paid fast food workers. So you got an anti-worker Secretary of Labor nominee rather than fulfilling Mr. Trump`s promises of saying he was going to side with the working people of this country.
HAYES: So, it`s interesting what you just said, because my question to you is, are you confident -- there`s a real question right now before us, as we enter this era, of how much reality is going to matter, honestly. I mean, I think there`s a confidence in some ways that politicians like yourself, I think even this White House of the current president had, that if you produce tangible gains, ultimately the truth wins out. And the question here to you is, are you confident that`s still the case, that should it be the case that wages decline, that outsourcing continues, that the economic squeeze on the middle class continues under a President Trump, that folks will pin it on him and not pin it on you or the democrats or some other scapegoat?
HAYES: Well, you`re raising a very profound question. And that is, what do you do when you have a President-elect, soon to be president, who, and I say this not happily, but I think most people who observe them would agree he`s a pathological liar. Who changes his mind every single day. And what you`re asking, does any of that matter? And I think the answer is, and I am working very hard on this, and we need the help of the American people, obviously, is to build a movement of millions of people who actually are following reality.
HAYES: Right.
SANDERS: OK, and that`s the challenge. Real change in this country, I am more and more convinced of it, is not going to come from Capitol Hill. It`s going to come from grassroots America.
HAYES: All right. So you and I are going to be in Kenosha, Wisconsin, on Monday. Kenosha is a fascinating place, it`s obviously got an amazing labor tradition, it`s a place where people made car engines for years. Those jobs have gone away. It`s got now an Amazon warehouse, it went for Barack Obama twice, Donald Trump won it narrowly. We`re going to have a town hall. What are you -- what are you looking for? What are you -- what do you want to see in this event that we do together on Monday?
SANDERS: Well, first of all, I want the truth. I really want to hear why people voted, the way they voted. I want to hear why people voted for Donald Trump, what their expectations were, why they did not vote for Secretary Clinton. Second of all, I want to bounce off to people their views about what a progressive agenda is. Do they support raising the minimum wage to a living wage? Do they support pay equity for women? Do they support a real new trade policy, which will demand that corporate America invests in this country? So, I think what we want to do is what kind of agenda makes sense to working people? What was the attractiveness of Donald Trump?
HAYES: All right. Senator Bernie Sanders, thanks for your time tonight. I`ll see you next in Kenosha, Wisconsin. I`m looking forward to it.
SANDERS: OK. Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: And be sure to be here with us on Monday for our town hall in Wisconsin, a special edition of "ALL IN AMERICA: BERNIE SANDERS IN TRUMP COUNTRY."
Coming up, new reports confirm Donald Trump plans to keep a stake in his business. Next, the man warning electors that in doing so, Trump could be violating the constitution the minute he takes office. That`s after this two-minute break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: All right. At this hour, Mike Pence, the Vice President-elect and the Governor of Indiana is speaking in Des Moines, Iowa. We`re expecting that Donald Trump will speak later, but do not go anywhere. We will keep it right here and monitor that for you.
Now, the man considered by many to be a reality show candidate will now literally be a reality show president. MGM, the company that produces "Celebrity Apprentice" today, confirming Donald J. Trump will continue to serve as that show`s executive producer in addition to his duties as, well, leader of the free world. The program now hosted by former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will air on NBC, although, it is produced and owned by MGM. NBC Entertainment has declined to comment on this story.
With the December 15th News Conference approaching in which President-elect Donald Trump has claimed he will discuss how he plans to take himself out of the business operations of his company, and all of its real estate operations. Today, The New York Times reports that Trump and daughter, Ivanka, will leave the operational responsibility to the President-elect`s two adult sons. "The Trumps are exploring what was described by one person briefed on the discussions as a `legal structure` that would give Mr. Trump and his daughter separation from the company."
Whatever that means, the President-elect intends to keep a stake in his company, and will resist calls to divest according to several people briefed on the matter speaking to The Times. So, this is important, the result will be, if everything goes according to plan, a President of the United States who even if he is not actively daily running his company, maintains business interests and the conflicts that come with them all around the world. And we already have an idea of what that would look like. The shadow it might cast over the decisions he makes. Take, for example, Taiwan. "We know that a Taiwan city planning a makeover says a Trump agent showed interest," according to The Times in development there. And we know that the President of Taiwan pictured there engaged in an unprecedented call with U.S. President-elect Donald Trump, possibly up- ending in a possibly dangerous fashion, America`s relationship with nuclear-armed China.
Now, we don`t know why Trump did that, but is it possible he did it because he wants to further his business interests in Taiwan? Who knows? We can`t be sure, and we cannot be sure unless he divested his interest in his company.
Joining me now, Ambassador Norman Eisen, former Chief White House Ethics counsel to President Obama, who along with George W. Bush`s former Chief Ethics Counsel said the Electoral College should reject Trump unless he sells his business. Ambassador Eisen, let`s start with that. You and Mr. Painter have both made this argument, it`s a very strong one, do you really think this is -- we`re headed into a constitutional crisis given the current setup for the President-elect?
NORMAN EISEN, FORMER CHIEF WHITE HOUSE ETHICS COUNSEL: Thanks, Chris, and thanks for having me. I do think we`re headed into a constitutional crisis. It is as if we`re in a parallel reality. The President-elect is forbidden under the expressed terms of the constitution. Once he takes office from getting flows of money from foreign governments. At the same time, in his international businesses and his businesses in the United States including his hotel, right down the block from the White House, he`s actively soliciting foreign governments.
The money and other benefits from foreign governments that will hit the moment he takes the oath of office, are forbidden by a provision of the constitution known as the Emoluments Clause. In plain language, it means no foreign benefits for presidents and yet he`s going to be getting them. That`s a constitutional crisis not from day one, from minute one.
HAYES: You know, part of the problem here, too, and when you talk about foreign governments, you`re talking about things that have been reported. Often, they`ve been reported in the foreign press, and that`s how we learn about them. But I want to -- I want to read you the lead of this great Wall Street Journal piece out today about the corporate structures of his holdings that make it very hard to penetrate what exactly they are. Take a -- take a listen to this. "President-elect Donald Trump owns a helicopter in Scotland. To be more precise, he has a revocable trust that owns 99 percent of a Delaware limited liability company that owns 99 percent of another Delaware LLC that owns a Scottish limited company that owns another Scottish company that owns the 26-year-old Sikorski S-76B helicopter emblazoned with a red Trump on the side of its fuselage."
I mean, is there -- are there requirements for disclosure such that we would even know when he takes the oath of office, what it is he owns?
EISEN: Chris, I was privileged to talk to the Journal as they put that story together. His corporate structures remind me of the flowcharts that they used to put up in the pizza connection in the mafia prosecution cases decades ago. This incredibly complex spaghetti chart. Why? And the situation is exacerbated by the fact that we don`t have his tax returns.
So, you have a combination of a global business enterprise, flows of money from foreign sources including foreign governments, an express prohibition in the constitution, a shadowy, vast, complicated corporate structure, and no taxes unlike every president for decades. It is a recipe for disaster and it`s going to turn the White House into a school for scandal.
HAYES: All right. Norm Eisen, Ambassador Norm Eisen, a pleasure. Thank you for staying up in Paris, appreciate it.
EISEN: All right. My pleasure, Chris, thanks for having me.
HAYES: Let`s check in with the President-elect of the United States who has just been introduced in Des Moines, Iowa. You could see him there walking into the hallway and clapping along with the iPhones and smartphones of various fans that have been taken out to take a picture of him. This is -- we should note, this is his third event like this. He`s doing another one tomorrow night. They originally -- a staffer had called these Victory Tours and then had changed the name to a Thank You tour, although, it should be noted he`s been going to states that he won.
This is someone who won an Electoral College majority, of course, making him the President-elect, but has lost the popular vote by about 2.6 million votes or 2 percentage points. A historic margin between the two, we haven`t seen since 1876 between Samuel Tilden and Rutherford B. Hayes.
It`s unclear whether these are going to continue while the president-elect is president, whether he`ll be doing these three or four nights a week and in primetime hoping to get coverage for all of them every night, every other night. Let`s take a listen to what the President-elect has to say for just a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What a crowd. Beautiful. Wow, wow! What a crowd! What great people, great people.
I`m here today for one main reason, to say thank you to the great, great people of Iowa. You went out and pounded, and I mean, pounded the pavement. You organized your fellow citizens and propelled us to victories at a grassroots and every other level. We have a movement the likes of which this world has never seen before. Never seen before. I also want to give a very special thanks to our veterans, a lot of veterans in this room, thank you. Thank you. Service members, military families, unbelievable people. Yesterday was the 75th anniversary of Pearl Harbor, and a reminder of the countless Americans who made the ultimate sacrifice for this and our country.
America`s men and women in uniform are the finest and bravest the world has ever known. And by the way, folks, we`re going to be building up our military. It will no longer be a depleted military, I promise. So, to all serving in our military and to all veterans who wore the uniform before, I say to you now on behalf of a very, very grateful nation, thank you, thank you, thank you.
We`re in your debt and we will never, ever let you down. Never. We`ll honor your service, your sacrifice, and that really begins with defending and respecting our American flag. I think you`ll be liking some of the things we`ll be putting forward in the not too distant future, do you know what I mean? Yes? Do you know what I mean? When Pearl Harbor was attacked, one man who immediately enlisted to defend his country was, John Glenn. For the next seven decades, he devoted his life to serving the American people, which he did from the cockpit of his bullet-riddled fighter jet -- tough times -- in the weightless silence of his mercury space -- oh, that`s OK. That`s OK. We have to respect John Glenn. That`s all right.
I think they`re actually on our side. They just don`t know it yet. They will be soon. But John was also in the weightless silence of his "Mercury" spacecraft and later in the halls of the U.S. capitol, our nation mourns the passing of one of our great heroes. He was a giant among men and a true American legend. Who inspired generations of explorers and dreamers, and we will honor his legacy by continuing to push new frontiers in science, technology and space.
In filling my cabinet, I`m looking for people who fully understand the meaning of service and who are committed to advancing the common good. One such man who, by the way, our country has fallen in love with, is General James "Mad Dog" Mattis.
HAYES: Donald Trump in Des Moines, Iowa. There were some protesters there holding up a sign saying "Iowa no hate." He gave a nice tribute to John Glenn, the astronaut, Ohio senator who died today at the age of 95. First man to orbit the earth.
Joining me now, Michelle Goldberg, columnist for Slate, and Christina Greer, Associate Professor Political Science at Fordham University. I --
CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Where to begin?
HAYES: Well, these rallies are odd, right? Because they`re in some ways they`re identical to the campaign rallies, which was a staple of the campaign. Michelle, you went to a bunch and talked to people. I went to a few. And they`re also little weird because there`s no campaign anymore so- -
MICHELLE GOLDBERG, SLATE: There`s just now the permanent campaign.
HAYES: That`s right. Yes, right.
GOLDBERG: I think that we always thought during the campaign that part of what Trump was in it for were the rallies, themselves, right, that that was part of what he was getting out of it. So I think what we`re going to see during the next four endless dystopian years is him making any excuse he can to kind of have these mass rallies and these, you know, i mean, he seems to -- there`s a kind of symbiotic energy between him and these crowds that he`s really addicted to I think.
HAYES: Yeah.
GREER: Well, I think it`s very clear that Trump wants the wedding and not the marriage, and the fact he`s skipping--
HAYES: That`s a funny way to put it, it`s a very funny way to but it.
GREER: He wants the big pageantry and that`s it, you know, and he doesn`t want the long term sort of like putting in the hard work. That`s for Pence to do, that`s why Pence is actually going to the briefings. And, you know, Trump went to two and he`s now ditching school.