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TRANSCRIPT
December 11, 2016
NEWS PROGRAM
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS HOSTS ABC'S "THIS WEEK" - Part 2
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Do you agree?
MCCASKILL: Well, I just think it's weird that he wants to be an executive producer of a TV show while he's President of the United States. I agree with Newt Gingrich. He doesn't have to do that.
And I think he can take major steps towards reassuring the American people that there can't even be appearance of impropriety for pay-to-play schemes under his administration.
STEPHANOPOULOS: How about this issue of Russian involvement in the American election?
We saw these reports over the weekend. We've been talking about them, of the CIA saying they were trying to tip the scales for Donald Trump. You have now got these bipartisan calls for an investigation.
Do you support that?
MCCASKILL: Yes, absolutely. And by the way, this should be not only about protecting us going forward but this is a form of warfare for Vladimir Putin, who is a thug and a bully and has the friends around the globe that we don't want to be friends with.
For him to be trying to impact our elections, that -- we have to -- there has to be -- he has to be held accountable.
STEPHANOPOULOS: How?
MCCASKILL: And that's why this has to -- well, that's -- some of that's classified, I believe. And I don't think that's something that we can discuss on TV.
But I've had briefings just this last week that indicate that this is a very serious issue for the American people to understand. And for Donald Trump to dismiss out of hand the intelligence community's fact gathering is, frankly -- doesn't bode well for him protecting our country.
I think he needs to not immediately react and wait until he gets all the facts.
STEPHANOPOULOS: It appears that Rex Tillerson is going to be the pick for secretary of state, even though, as Reince Priebus said, it's not a completely done deal yet.
What kind of questions do you have about that?
MCCASKILL: Well, first of all, his cabinet or -- I call it the 3-G cabinet, Goldman, generals and gazillionaires. And I think it's one of the things that for someone who has worked around the world for profit, it is different than working around the world to make sure we have strong alliances and to make sure that we are in the strongest position to protect our country.
And I worry about the lack of experience that he has had on the diplomatic front and, frankly, I think that's true for many of the appointments to Trump's cabinet. They haven't had experience in the areas that they're being asked to manage in a very complicated world and a very complicated government.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You mentioned the concerns about the generals as well. You, of course, are on the Homeland Security Committee. General Kelly has been named as the new secretary, the nominee for Homeland Security.
You have concerns about him?
MCCASKILL: Well, I'm going to wait for the confirmation hearings. I'm familiar with General Kelly because of my work on the Armed Services Committee. I think he is a fine general and I want to make sure that he has a handle on some of the complicated issues that are contained within Homeland Security.
They have a lot of contractors. We have had a lot of whistle- blowing going on out of the Department of Homeland Security, low morale. I want to make sure he understands the agency he's stepping into. So I'll reserve judgment until after confirmation hearings.
STEPHANOPOULOS: On another matter, your outgoing leader, Senator Harry Reid, thinks that the FBI director, James Comey, should resign because he underplayed information that Russia was involved in these elections.
Do you agree with that?
MCCASKILL: Well, I know this, that there were thousands and thousands of hours given to Hillary Clinton's e-mail server and Benghazi. It seems to me we need bipartisanship now to look at exactly what happened in this election and exactly the things that people like James Comey did and put it in context to make sure we have all the facts, because I don't think anyone is comfortable with how this election played out.
I'm not questioning that Donald Trump won the election. But there's nothing more sacred than our democratic process in the United States. And we have got to make sure that -- put aside partisan politics and make sure that we're getting to the bottom of all of this.
STEPHANOPOULOS: One of the things we know for sure in this election -- and Rand Paul just talked about it -- Hillary Clinton got decimated in rural and small-town America, not only in Kentucky, but in places like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.
How do Democrats get their act together, win back those rural, small-town voters that they have lost?
MCCASKILL: Well, I think it's important that we show up. I think it's important that we communicate directly with all those working people.
You know, I was really shocked this week that, after all of this talk about coal miners and all of this talk about Buy America, the Republicans and the House of Representatives gutted health care and pension protections for coal miners and removed the Buy America provision that had been put in the bill in a bipartisan basis.
So I think we have got to call out the Republicans, where their walk doesn't match their talk, and I think we also have to make sure that we communicate clearly that we are the party that cares deeply in our core about working people in this country.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator McCaskill, thanks for joining us this morning.
MCCASKILL: Thank you.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Coming up, as we heard, President-Elect Trump will say this week what he intends to do with his businesses once he enters the White House. We're going to ask ethics lawyers for Presidents Obama and Bush what they think he should do. And our Powerhouse Roundtable ahead on another head-spinning week in politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: There you see Donald Trump taking a break from the campaign trail to open his new hotel in Washington. And that pride and joy is just one of the businesses that could create a conflict of interest in the Oval Office.
As the president prepares to address these conflicts in a press conference this week, our chief investigative correspondent, Brian Ross, reports on Trump's global business empire and what it means once Trump enters the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN ROSS, ABC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Donald Trump's business partners around the world, including the developers of this luxury golf course in Dubai, what some in the U.S. may see as a conflict of interest is, for them, money in the bank.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His brand has become stronger, more global. We're definitely benefiting out of that.
THOMAS: During the campaign, Trump pledged to leave his business interests behind.
TRUMP: If I become president, I couldn't care less about my company.
THOMAS: But since the election, Trump, from his penthouse office in New York City, has used the power and prestige of the presidency to promote his business interests. He took time to meet with the Indian developers of two Trump Towers in their country, who posted this picture and then took it down.
He complained to a British politician about wind turbines near his Scottish golf course. And the president-elect made sure to include his daughter Ivanka in a meeting with the Japanese prime minister, just as she is in talks to expand her clothing line in Japan.
With Trump investments or deals in at least 18 countries around the world, even those whose advice has been sought by the transition office say the president-elect is leaving himself open to serious conflicts.
PETER SCHWEIZER, AUTHOR, "CLINTON CASH": You're going to have foreign entities, foreign governments offering sweetheart deals in the hope of favorable action from the president of the United States.
THOMAS: That may already be happening. At the new the luxury hotel in Washington, DC, which seems to be the new in spot, the place for foreign governments and special interests to show loyalty to Donald Trump.
Earlier this week, the kingdom of Bahrain rented out the presidential ballroom at an estimated cost around $100,000 to celebrate its national holiday. So we showed up to ask why here?
(on camera): Last year, you were at a different hotel.
Is this because Mr. Trump is the president-elect?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no comment.
THOMAS (voice-over): The wealthy kingdom of Bahrain certainly has good reasons to court the incoming Trump administration. Its human rights record has been harshly criticized by the U.S., accused of torture, even threats of rape and other violence against political opponents.
Outside, as Bahrain diplomats left, they still weren't talking.
(on camera): You don't want to say anything at all about...
(voice-over): And security men blocked our cameras.
Trump says the hotel will become even more valuable, since he's going to be in the White House.
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND:
All you have to do is follow the money and if you follow the money, it leads right back to Donald Trump's pockets.
THOMAS: And this coming week, as Trump announces his plans to resolve conflicts of interest, the government of Azerbaijan will be spending big money here to throw its own holiday party.
For THIS WEEK, Brian Ross, ABC News, Washington.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
STEPHANOPOULOS: Thanks to Brian for that.
I'm joined now by ethics counsels for our last two presidents, Norm Eisen for President Obama, Richard Painter for George W. Bush. Welcome to both of you.
And Mr. Eisen, let me begin with you. You've -- it's pretty clear that Donald Trump is not going to divest. You've heard Rand Paul say that they think it's unrealistic. Why do you think he must? Norm Eisen.
AMB. NORM EISEN, FORMER OBAMA CHIEF ETHICS LAWYER: Donald Trust -- Trump must divest, George, because of his web of domestic and international business relationships that create a conflict of interest for him.
He's moved to admit that there is a conflict of interest now and he needs to do something.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Even though the law does not -- says the president does not come under the conflict of interest laws?
EISEN: George, "The Constitution" has something called The Emoluments Clause. That's just a fancy, 18th century word for no foreign government payments. And Donald Trump is collecting foreign government payments and other benefits throughout his business.
It is a direct violation of "The Constitution" and unless he divests, not just operations, he must divest from all business interests or he will be in violation of "The Constitution" from day one.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Even if he turns it over to the family -- his family and executives?
PAINTER: If he retains the ownership of the businesses and those businesses take money from foreign governments, in transactions with foreign governments or corporations controlled by foreign governments. He will be in violation of "The Constitution," regardless of who's managing the businesses. It's about who owns them.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But what -- but what's the -- what's the remedy here?
It's only -- only the Congress can take this on, correct?
EISEN: Well, there's going to be a lot of remedies. He's also subject to other conflicts laws, George. The bribery laws are intended to prevent conflicts, for example. He's subject to criminal law. He's subject to civil law. He's going to be subject to litigation. He's already in a lot of cases. This is going to come up in existing litigation and there's going to be new litigation.
People are studying whether there's a cause of action that competitors, for example, would have if they're harmed by these foreign government payments.
He's going to be tainted by scandal. Congress hangs by just three Republican votes. If he loses three Republicans, you're going to see investigations, subpoenas.
So he faces a lot of problems.
Why go there?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Immediately, you've got this issue of the hotel in Washington. The lease is held by the General Services Administration.
RICHARD PAINTER, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA LAW SCHOOL: Yes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: The president will pick the head of the General Services Administration. So he's both tenant and landlord at the same time?
PAINTER: Well, yes, and that's one of the many situations where there are going to be conflicts of interest. There are National Labor Relations Board cases involving Trump properties. And then we have the broader conflicts of interest. He owes hundreds of millions of dollars to banks.
How do we expect the Trump administration to regulate the financial services sector?
Are we going to have another bubble where real estate prices go up, along with bank stocks for a while, until there's a crash, and everybody suffers because of it?
He needs to focus on being president. The president is not an inn keeper. He is not a celebrity talk show host or reality star host. Let somebody else do those jobs.
I think Bush is looking for a job. Maybe he could take over "The Apprentice."
EISEN: And George, there's a Russia angle to all this, because remember, we don't have Donald Trump's tax returns. He did a very -- relative summary, 104 page campaign financial disclosure. One year of tax returns, reportedly -- we've seen the pictures, 12,000 pages. And tax returns are replete with his foreign interests, including, perhaps, his Russian interests. That may be the reason he doesn't want to turn over his taxes.
You've got to disclose partnership information, names of partners, custodians, foreign accounts.
So with the new Russia allegations coming to the fore once again, the conclusion of the intelligence agencies, we've got to have those taxes to evaluate whether these conflicts go to the heart of our most pressing national security interests.
STEPHANOPOULOS: It appears that the direction he's heading, as we talked about, is turning over the operations to his children, to other executives, and setting up some kind of a mechanism, a board, perhaps within the White House counsel's office, to review any possible conflicts as they come up, deals that his children may have.
Why can't that work?
PAINTER: Well, George, the problem with that is that if he owns the businesses, all of the conflicts remain with him, regardless of who is managing the businesses. He owns the company. The foreign government pays money into the company pursuant to any type of contract or a loan from the Bank of China and he benefits from that, we have a violation of "The Constitution." It doesn't matter who's running the companies.
And these firewalls aren't going to work. That isn't going to be an appropriate function for the White House counsel's office, to be policing firewalls within the Trump business organization.
It won't work. The focus for him needs to be on being a good president. He can take these companies public or find private buyers. He can covert these companies to cash. He'll have a couple of billion dollars. He can give some of it to his kids, give them a good start. And he can focus on being a good president. and that's what he ought to do.
STEPHANOPOULOS: We will be watching the announcement this week.
Gentlemen, thank you both very much.
EISEN: Thanks, George.
PAINTER: Thank you very much, George.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And we'll be right back with our Powerhouse Roundtable.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: Trump cabinet filling out. His clash with the CIA. A whole lot to talk about with our Powerhouse Roundtable.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DWIGHT EISENHOWER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex.
The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANOPOULOS: The farewell address of President Eisenhower right there. A lot to talk about on our roundtable, including Rich Lowry, editor of the "National Review;" "Washington Post" columnist E.J. Dionne; Democratic strategist Jamal Simmons and Republican strategist Sarah Huckabee.
And, Rich, let me begin with you.
Donald Trump's top appointments so far, I think you have got eight CEOs and bankers, three generals.
So is this what Ike had in mind?
RICH LOWRY, EDITOR, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Well, he -- clearly Trump likes the way business executives and generals think and talk much more than policy professionals.
And from where I sit, it's a superb cabinet so far. A lot of these choices could have been made by Ted Cruz. So you're going to have this shotgun marriage between a very orthodox Republican cabinet and a very unorthodox.
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: How does Rex Tillerson fit in there?
LOWRY: I would like to see someone with more traditional foreign policy experience and, obviously, his views and attitudes towards Russia will be a big part of the confirmation hearings. But ultimately he will reflect Trump's policy towards Russia, which will be friendly up right up to the point of time it isn't.
And it's worth remembering George W. Bush, Barack Obama also came in thinking they had the magic key to better, warmer relations with Russia; those efforts ended in tears. And I would expect the same here --
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- I take it you're not as reassured as Rich?
E. J. DIONNE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I'm not somehow. First of all, thanks for playing that Ike speech. It's one of great speeches in American history. And I wish we had more Eisenhower Republicans in this Trump cabinet.
I mean, what's really striking here is that a candidate who ran as the Paladin of the working class who'd deliver them picks a guy who heads a fast-food company, Trump says he wants to bring back manufacturing.
Here we have Mr. Posner (ph), who doesn't -- is not wild about labor protections. And you have this all the way through this cabinet so that I think there are a lot of other things to worry about Trump. But in conventional political terms, this is a cabinet that I think is going to have a very hard time delivering to the base that Trump courted in this election.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And that's what I want to ask you about, Sarah Huckabee, you do have all -- these are the kind of people that Trump actually attacked during the campaign, especially Goldman Sachs.
Is there a risk that his base is going to feel betrayed?
SARAH HUCKABEE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I don't think so at all. I think the big common denominator between all of these cabinet picks are that they're actually people that have gotten things done. These are executives; these are leaders; these are pragmatic doers.
They're not think tank theorists. They're not people that have sat around and come up with big ideas and talked about them. These are people that have turned around companies, put their lives on the line and really made big reform, big change and accomplished big things.
That's everything that Trump campaigned on was coming in, changing things, shaking things up and getting things done. And that's exactly what I think this cabinet says about the type of president we're going to have.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And, Jamal Simmons, even though the president- elect is talking a lot to President Obama, you look at some of these picks, especially Greg Pruitt (ph) for the EPA, the Oklahoma attorney general. They're coming in to overturn a lot of President Obama's legacy.
JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: They're going to come in and try for sure. I think the thing that -- what we don't know is there's a reason why people are successful who are in politics for a long time. There are skills you learn. There are ways you learn to behave.
Sometimes the shortest route between point A and point B is to go through C and D first, you got to go a little sideways before you can go forward. And I'm not sure that corporate CEOs and generals are prepared necessarily to do that.
And we talk about the cabinet; I think Democrats are going to face a choice. We can't fight every single one of these. And if we're outraged about everything, nothing will be outrageous. So we have got to figure out which one of these secretaries we're going to take a stand on.
My vote would be for somebody Jeff Sessions. I think Jeff Sessions in particular, say it's six months after the tragedy that happened in Tulsa or in Orlando, after that, Loretta Lynch, the attorney general, went to Orlando and said to the folks down there, the LGBT community, that I will stand with you, the Department of Justice will stand with you in the light.
Do we think that the Department of Justice will still be standing with those people with Jeff Sessions as A.G.?
I'm not sure that they will.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me press you on that.
Do you think there's any realistic chance of stopping Jeff Sessions when he's been in the Senate for a couple of terms?
SIMMONS: You may not be able to stop him. We got to raise the heat on that. I think that's the kind of thing that particularly Democratic forces want to see Democrats fight on, somebody who's said nice things about the KKK, somebody who's been against LGBT issues.
That's something that Democrats want to see them fight on.
LOWRY: The case against Jeff Sessions was threadbare three decades ago. It's based on hearsay and innuendo and a joke he made about the Klan.
I think likelier targets are Mnuchin, the Treasury pick. When you look at his dealings during the financial crisis, that's going to be a target rich environment, and Tillerson.
But I think just focusing on the wealth of these cabinet picks misunderstands Trump's economic strategy here, which is going to be equal parts traditional Republican economics. We're going to cut taxes, deregulate to try to create general pro-growth conditions, at the same time, much more than any other Republican ever before, he's going to focus on trying to tighten the labor market directly through discouraging outsourcing and tightening up on immigration, all towards the goal of actually increasing wages, that's a new focus for the Republican Party and a very important one.
DIONNE: But, you know, the idea that it's not just about the fact that these guys are billionaires, it's also the policies these billionaires happen to want to put in place.
And on the question of opposition, I think there are -- when you want to send a signal if you're on the Democratic side that this is a very right wing cabinet at odds with so much of what Trump said. And it's also going to be fascinating to see if your Republican Party in the congress actually goes along with those aspects of the Trump plan that are designed to raise wages.
LOWRY: He campaigned on repealing Obamacare. He campaigned on an enormous tax cut, and he campaigned on a deregulatory agenda.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah, but you just see -- he's also talking about infrastructure, and you just heard Rand Paul say if the budget increases the debt or deficit there's one no vote to begin with.
Let me move on to this question of Russia and the president- elect's dispute with the CIA. Pretty extraordinary what he's saying about the findings of the intelligence community, saying he doesn't believe them, doesn't trust them, saying he doesn't need -- he was doing this on Fox News Sunday this morning, saying he's a pretty start guy, doesn't need the presidential daily brief every day.
Is he on a collision course with the intelligence community?
HUCKABEE: I don't think so. I mean, look, and you had his soon to be chief of staff Priebus on earlier, said they have confidence in these agencies. I think that he is taking a lot of this information in. But at the same time when you have intelligence agencies leaking information and perpetuating a story that frankly isn't true and there's nothing to substantiate in terms of the RNC being hacked and things like that, there is cause for concern and questions.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But Rich Lowry, it's not just the leaking. I mean, you heard Reince Priebus there, back in October, this was a public statement by the intelligence agency saying Russia was behind it. President-elect says he just doesn't believe it.
LOWRY: Right, there's no point trying to sugar-coat this or get Jesuitical (ph) about it. Yes, Russia tried to manipulate our election. Yes, it's appalling. Yes, it should be investigated and taken seriously.
But I do think -- you look at actually what WikiLeaks came out with, most of it was just gossipy interest, except for like this Doug Band (ph) memo from a Clinton crony in black and white who explained the Clinton Foundation was a profit center for Bill Clinton and people around him.
The Russians didn't make that up, that was all Hillary's vulnerability her own.
DIONNE: But the Russians stole it from the Democratic National Committee with hacking.
I think this is a scary thing that does have to be taken out of a partisan context. And one of the best pieces of news this morning is a joint statement, Senator Schumer, Senator Reid for the Democrats, McCain and Graham from the Republicans, saying we have to get to the bottom of this.
And I think there are a lot of Americans who are very scared, scared that Putin manipulated us, worried about Rex Tillerson, the winner of Russia's order of friendship as the secretary of state. And very scared that Donald Trump and his campaign, or his future administration, is just in denial. They just want to say, no, no, no, Putin couldn't possibly have done this.
It sure looks like Putin did this. And we all need to take this seriously.
SIMMONS: And George, what's really concerning to me is it seems like we have somebody who is going to be the captain of our team, but he's spending more time going to pep rallies than he is going to practice. So, the problem here is you have got people like Susan Rice who says she's just meant her counterpart for the first time last week. Lisa Monaco (ph) on Friday said she had not met her counterterrorism counterpart yet from the Trump organization.
The president himself is not getting security briefings on a regular basis. I mean, at some point just an American, don't we want this team to be ready to take the handoff of the baton from the Obama administration and be able to protect the country from the threats that we face?