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TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: A "Fox News" alert. President-elect Donald Trump is taking his thank you tour to Grand Rapids on the west coast of Michigan tonight. The second he takes the stage, we will take you there live as we always do.
But right now, welcome to "Tucker Carlson Tonight," the show that is the sworn enemy of lying, pomposity, smugness and group think.
Well, there is a new scourge in America. You may have heard of it because it's newly famous. It's called fake news. It's something the left is very exercised about. And the idea is propaganda is finding its way into your daily read and influencing your behavior. Hillary Clinton has some of her first remarks since losing the presidency last month described it literally as life-threatening.
The question is what should we do about it and can we do anything without abridging freedom of speech?
We want to talk tonight to someone who is on the front lines of the battle over fake news. His name is Tim Lee, who worked at Vox.com, the famous and very valuable news site. And he says big media companies aren't doing enough to stop it. Tim joins us now.
Tim, thanks for coming on. We appreciate it.
TIM LEE, VOX.COM: Hi, thanks for having me on.
CARLSON: So I don't think anybody is for fake news or for inaccurate information or propaganda. I mean, it's offensive. But I guess the point I would make is it's everywhere. And I read Vox.com every day. I've got a rich and varied media diet and here are some of the things I've learned on your site.
And I want to buckle your seatbelt because this was on Vox.
"There is a bridge between the Gaza strip and West Bank." False.
"There are 102 toilets per person in Boulder, Colorado." Not true.
"If you had 10.9 billion Syrian refugees, you would probably only have three terror attacks." That's bad math.
Here is my favorite, "There was a man who escaped both doomed Malaysian Airlines flights."
(LAUGHTER)
And, finally, and I could go on, "Germany isn't a major arms dealer. Actually, it's number three."
"Kathleen Sebelius resigned because Obamacare was successful." I mean, on and on and on.
Your site like a lot of sites has fake news on it, should we shut it down? Should the Congress act? Should Facebook take you out of its news feeds.
LEE: No, absolutely not. And to be clear, I'm not advocating the Congress do anything here. Facebook is a private company. They set their own editorial policies and I'm encouraging them to raise the standard for the kind of content that they direct their readers to.
And, look, we cherry picked (INAUDIBLE) for years. We published hundreds of articles. And, yes, we make some mistakes. The difference is when we make mistakes on those rare occasions, we change the article to fix the mistake. We issue a correction like any reputable news organization.
CARLSON: Well, no, actually -- you actually, that's it. I am anticipating you might say that and I checked. Some of these pieces are still up. The IRS scam was proof. The IRS needs a bigger budget?
Sebelius is still there because Obamacare succeed. That's still up. The idea that, you know, 10.9 billions here of refugees would lead to three terror attacks. That's still up. I just looked at it. You haven't corrected those things.
LEE: So those seem like more analytical things.
CARLSON: Straight up, they are not true, it's propaganda. That's what you are accusing the fake news producers of making.
LEE: For example, one of the most widely shared fake news articles claim that the pope had endorsed Donald Trump. That simply did not happen.
CARLSON: Yes, that's wrong. Yes.
LEE: There was no evidence that that happened.
CARLSON: Right.
LEE: That is different from claiming that, you know, making analysis of why Kathleen Sebelius resigned -- you can agree or disagree with that.
CARLSON: Well, I don't know. It's no different from saying there are 102 toilets per person in Boulder, Colorado. I mean, you are more offended by one than the other, but they are both totally wrong.
LEE: No.
CARLSON: And the point is, look, who is going to make these decisions? The promise of journalism is, the only reason we are allowed to practice it in the first place because there is a free flow of information. If you don't like something, explain why it's wrong, make a counter case. And you are saying don't even bother with that. Shut it down. Just crush it.
LEE: No, what I'm saying is that Facebook, as part of that free flow of information, they are a company that is in the business of directing people to certain types of content. They are not simply showing people the content that their users are sharing. They are choosing from the many different types of content that their users share. Which ones are most worth sharing? And they could do a better job of putting first in the news feed the stories that are from more reputable outlets with a history of doing good journalism and putting at the bottom of the list stories that are clearly factually erroneous like claiming that, for example, that the Clinton campaign was running a pedophilia ring out of a pizza joint in Washington, D.C. There was no evidence for that.
CARLSON: OK.
LEE: And Facebook could (INAUDIBLE). I mean, they can do the same thing with Vox. If we do publish an inaccurate article and Facebook determines it to be inaccurate, they should put that to the back of the line as well.
CARLSON: But I guess what bothers me here and I think it should bother you, too, you are a working journalist, you write pieces, you cover things.
The idea that someone somewhere is making totally subjective judgments about what's legitimate, what's illegitimate, what's worth sharing and what's not, what's propaganda, what's true. I mean, these are things that are subject to the whims of people and once you start making those judgments, you start suppressing other points of view.
I mean, "The New York Times," I assume you would think, you would describe as legitimate, they put all kinds of fake junk out about the election. They predicted Hillary was going to win. Trump could never win. Hispanics would never vote for -- I mean, a lot of things they wrote as fact were not fact. But you would never consider suppressing them, would you?
LEE: Well, no. I think that's actually exactly backwards. As journalists, I understand that a key part of journalism is choosing which information is most reputable and showing that information to journalists. And I just think that Facebook as the largest media organization in the world arguably needs to start taking some responsibility just like "New York Times," just like "Vox," just like "Fox News." You shouldn't just put any kind of garbage up on "New York Times" Web site. You shouldn't put any garbage up on "Fox News" and Facebook should not be sharing an article that says that the pope endorsed Donald Trump and saying that to million people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Here's what bothers me. When you say take responsibility, what you are really saying is assume more power. And as a journalist whose job it is to challenge those with power, I think you would say, wait a second. Facebook has too much already. It's the most powerful arbiter of information since the invention of language. Since people live in cage and grunted.
All of the news in America pretty much flows through Facebook. You want to say to them go beyond your current responsibilities and decide what people can see? I mean that's too much power concentrated in too few hands. Wouldn't you say?
LEE: No, I'm not saying that anything should be suppressed. With the news feed, Facebook decides here are the ones we are going to put at the top of the list and here are the ones we're going to put at the bottom. Right now the criteria they use, the primary one is how many times is something shared. And we've seen that people like to share inflammatory stories that are often inaccurate. I'm just saying that Facebook should change the way they prioritize articles so that article --
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So what's inflammatory mean?
LEE: Well, I'm just saying that often --
CARLSON: Is it OK to share inflammatory -- stories you disagree with right? I mean to you, would a story arguing on behalf of partial birth abortion would not be inflammatory, but to someone in Utah it might be. Do you see what I'm saying, it's subjective.
LEE: Right. No, I'm not saying that they should suppress inflammatory ones, but I'm saying that often the fake news ones because you can make up facts often, you know, saying the pope endorsed Trump is a very highly thing, terrible story.
CARLSON: That's one example, but I doubt you could name ten. And this is a threat to speech. And I think you kind of know what I'm talking about. You are a journalist. And I just -- I kind of get what you are saying, but I think we should be very vigilant about attempts to suppress information that we disagree with and I hope you would agree with that.
LEE: I absolutely agree we should not suppress. But, again, Facebook is now forgetting this. Facebook is a private organization.
CARLSON: Right.
LEE: It's a large organization and it's not taking more power. It's using the power it has and it's already making decisions off this article.
CARLSON: When did the left start making apologies for big business. I guess when big business went left. Maybe that's it. I don't know. They have more power than the government in my life. I know that.
Tim, unfortunately, we're out of time. I appreciate it. Thanks for coming on.
LEE: Thank you.
CARLSON: We are still waiting for President-elect Donald Trump to speak in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
We're going to head over to Peter Doocy who is live, he never stops traveling, inside the arena there in Grand Rapids.
Peter?
PETER DOOCY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And, Tucker, the big news tonight ahead of the president-elect's remarks which sounds like might be just a few minutes from now as the program is starting is that Rudy Giuliani, America's mayor, who we all thought was in the final four, maybe final five secretary of state contenders is now saying that he sent a letter to the transition team on November 29th saying he wanted to be taken out of contention for any administration post. But at the time on November 29th, that letter was not accepted. They said no. We are still thinking about you for a job, a good job.
Mr. Giuliani has been quoted as saying the only one that he wanted or that he thought he wanted to put his name in for was secretary of state.
So something happened between then when this letter was written and Reince Priebus says that he was vetted for possible conflict of interest but pass with flying colors. And now where he's out of the mix. And the word is coming now from the mayor himself.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: The other positions I didn't have an interest in. So that really that was the only one I had any real interest in. But it wasn't so overwhelming that, you know, I'm terribly disappointed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOOCY: The mayor also elaborated with this. He says, quote, "Before I joined the campaign, I was very involved and fulfilled by my work with my law firm and consulting firm and I will continue that work with even more enthusiasm from the vantage point of the private sector. I look forward to helping the president-elect in any way he deems necessary and appropriate."
And the president-elect is chiming in, too. Mr. Trump says this, "Rudy is and continues to be a close personal friend. And as appropriate, I will call upon him for advice and can see an important place for him in the administration at a later date."
The president-elect is on his way here to Michigan right now from Louisiana, where he used his star power as the G.O.P.'s most in demand surrogate to try and get out the vote for the U.S. Senate candidate John Kennedy who faces a run-off tomorrow.
The president-elect also made some news by suggesting that the reason the U.S. government agrees to some bad contracts is because government workers are hoping to some day work for the companies that they are granting contracts to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think anybody that gives out these big contracts should never ever during their lifetime be allowed to work for a defense company. For a company that makes that product. I don't know. It makes sense to me.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
Because I'm sure it's never happened. I'm sure it's never ever happened in the history of our country. But I could see somebody approving a deal that they shouldn't approve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOOCY: So it's getting loud in here in an arena that is normally the house of the NBA D league team here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. We are not sure exactly what to expect from Mr. Trump because we never do. We know that his favorite to be the next education Secretary Betsy DeVos, who is from Michigan is going to be here.
And we also have our eyes on his schedule from Monday, because we found out that he is going to meet in Manhattan with Carly Fiorina, a long time rival who also served as Ted Cruz's running mate during the end of Ted Cruz's time in the primaries.
Tucker?
DOOCY: Great Peter Doocy live inside the arena in Grand Rapids. Thanks, Peter.
By the way, New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani will be on with Bill right after this so watch "The O'Reilly Factor." I'm going to watch that.
Was inauguration day near? Trump has the support of most Republicans in this country, but not everyone is impressed. Not all the Republicans especially in Washington.
Jennifer Rubin is a Republican who writes an opinion piece for "The Washington Post," pretty regularly. Her latest one is titled the "Trump Swamp Will Deepen." She joins us now with her assessment of the president- elect.
Jennifer, thanks a lot for joining us tonight.
JENNIFER RUBIN, WASHINGTON POST: Thank you for having me.
CARLSON: So everyone is trying to figure out, you know, how this happened. And the Democratic Party is going through this process, where they are trying to decide whether or not to take Trump voters seriously. Whether to dismiss them as bigots or to acknowledge maybe there are some legitimate concerns.
You are a Republican writing a column on the right for "The Washington Post. And I wonder where you are now. I want to read you your assessment. Since I read it and from Washington. You wrote this in October of this year.
"As the old white males who made up Trump's base and "Fox News'" TV audience literally die off over the ensuing decade, there will be insufficient numbers to stand on The Hill with a rational and an unpopular stance on immigration restrictionism."
And then you go on to attack as you have a number of times white males, angry white males.
The immigration ploy is not about jobs or terrorism, but angry white males, who think the country is changing. Have you revised your view, or do you think it's just about racist white men?
RUBIN: Well, first of all that passage doesn't say it's just about racist men. It states a fact, which is true that Trump's demographic is older and whiter. And although it didn't happen in this election, at some point, they will not be enough white people just to rely primarily on that demographic. And it's happening at a rate of about 2 to 4 percent each year that the percentage of white voters goes down so it's simply truism that although it's an extraordinary election that it worked this time so to speak with the celebrity and with Hillary Clinton on the other side let's not forget.
CARLSON: Right.
RUBIN: It's not a winning strategy over time.
CARLSON: OK. I want to let you -- I want to let you articulate your point of view, but I have to challenge you on one thing and that's your claim that it's true and that you can support it, which is of course totally false. Let me refer to your --
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: No, it's not.
CARLSON: Let me refer to your words here.
RUBIN: It's not.
CARLSON: September 22nd you wrote this and I'm quoting. "Trump immigration ploy is not about jobs or terrorism, but angry whites who think the country is changing."
Do you have access to some special poll the rest of us haven't seen that proves that it is not about jobs, it's about their anger based on race? You don't know that and you claimed it anyway. Why?
RUBIN: You just asked a different question than the one you accused me of lying on. Yes, I do have evidence that the white demographic is declining. That's a statistical fact.
CARLSON: But you are talking about motive here.
RUBIN: Now you asked a different question. So, let me answer this question. When you look at Trump voters in a variety of testing modes. They have more negative attitudes towards African-Americans and towards Hispanics. They very strongly supports --
CARLSON: African-Americans are not immigrating to the country. So that's not -- that's a different category here.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Correct. You're asking -- when you say racist, I didn't know that you were referring just to --
CARLSON: Let me just for the third time read what you said. "The immigration ploy is not about jobs or terrorism, it's about angry whites."
You are saying they are racist. It's not about jobs or terrorism. They are pretending it is. And I'm asking you, do you have evidence for that or you're just dismissing them as bigots because you can't imagine another explanation?
RUBIN: No. I assume that people are rationale and that I guess, was a big mistake for this election.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, you are claiming they are irrational, actually right here.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I'm claiming that they are just wrong and that Donald Trump did a very good job of perpetuating them at their levels.
CARLSON: No, you are claiming that they are immoral. You are saying they're racist. That's not wrong. You are saying they are bad people. It's about angry whites who think the country is changing.
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: Some of them are.
CARLSON: OK. So here is my point to you. Why would you write something like that in a newspaper without having any fact to back it up, unless you somehow have access to the inner thoughts of Trump voters? Why would you imagine you know their motives? That's my question.
RUBIN: We have lots of facts. In fact, people have written entire books this year, their sociological analysis.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So what are your facts? I'm giving you a chance to present them.
RUBIN: All right. There are a lot of Trump voters who have very negative feelings towards African-Americans and towards Mexican-Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And what does that have to do with immigration, Jen? Let's stick to the topic here.
RUBIN: Can I finish the point? Can I finish the point?
CARLSON: I wish you would.
RUBIN: They have negative views about various minority groups. We also know that the average Trump voter is not affected by immigration and displacement. There are about $72,000 a year in the economic. So that's pretty good to them.
CARLSON: So they're not. Then you think that's pretty good? Is that what you make you? You think that's enough for people to make that they are not affected by immigration?
RUBIN: It's a higher -- much higher. It's much higher than the average Americans. So it's not the people who are hurting the most.
It is also happening in areas in which the influx of minorities has been the fastest and the heaviest. In other words, white areas of the Midwest who have had influx of people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: So they must be racist. Here is my point to you. Look, you are making a very serious charge. I think this is an interesting debate. There are two sides, to legitimate sides. But before you call people racist, you better have some real evidence and you don't. And I just asked you and you don't have it?
RUBIN: That's not true. That's not true. We have lots of --
CARLSON: You can't know their motives so how about don't speculate on them.
RUBIN: Well, listen, we all draw conclusions and there is evidence. There is polling evidence, in fact, that created quite a stir, you remember, before the election that Trump voters do have more negative views of minorities than non-Trump voters.
CARLSON: So that's probably why they don't want increased immigration because they are bad people. I have heard that before. And I just --
RUBIN: Some people do and some people don't.
CARLSON: You know what, that's evidence of contempt for voters of ignorance and unwillingness to understand their point of view and it's unhelpful. And I think, you know, you should be above that. I guess that's the point I would make. We are out of time. Thanks for joining us.
Jennifer Rubin from "The Washington Post" representing the Republican side week after week.
RUBIN: Thank you.
CARLSON: Now it's time for "Twitter Storm." Our nightly forecast of social media's most intense weather patterns. Tonight, a heavy wind of political ignorance is sweeping.
Former "Star Trek" actor George Takei to another planet. He tweeted this. Dear Mr. Takei, he said, "Dear Democrats, you had better be prepared to filibuster folks like Mattis, Flynn, and Sessions. We are counting on you to hold your ground."
OK. There is only one problem. Harry Reid, the outgoing Democratic head of the Senate got rid of filibusters on administration nominees back when the Democrats held the Senate. Ha-ha-ha.
Takei has since deleted his tweet, but that didn't stop others from noticing on Twitter.
Andrew wrote this. "Sounds grand, George. Please stick to acting."
Kevin K. tweeted, "Yawn. Who cares about celebrity opinions? If people did, Hillary would have won." Which is a fair point, honestly.
IHC wrote this, "Oh the Democrats like to filibuster now."
Yes they do, but it's too late.
That's tonight's "Twitter Storm."
Remember Martin Shkreli? The guy who jacked up the price of a pharmaceutical products and became the least popular person in America. Well, he's on to something new now and it's taking place on Twitter. He joins us in studio in just a minute.
Also, Donald Trump's thank you tour continues tonight in the state of Michigan. Pre-program is underway right now. We're waiting for him to take the stage and of course we will go there live. Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: You saw the new president -- the president-elect just a few moments away from speaking in Grand Rapids, Michigan on the West Coast to Michigan and we will put him up live as soon as he gets there.
Remember Martin Shkreli? He was dubbed the most hated man in America when his pharmaceutical company raised the price of a drug, a pretty rare drug by about 5000 percent. Since then he has been busy making a name for himself and speaking a lot on Twitter. And he joins us now.
Martin, it's good to see you.
MARTIN SHKRELI, PHARMACEUTICAL ENTREPRENEUR: Thanks for having me.
CARLSON: So you're one of the most hated -- it's hard to know who is the most hated man in America, but you are definitely up there. You know what I mean? And I would give you the crown, but I don't have the poll here.
So, typically, when people are under assault in the press, they go through a now familiar series of public confessions. They go on "Ellen" and cry. They go on "Dancing with the Stars" or.
(CROSSTALK)
SHKRELI: Or just hide.
CARLSON: Or hide, exactly. Move to Barbados. You have gone on to Twitter and it's gone like crazy. So I can't even read some of these because they are still over the top.
Election night you tweeted this to Hillary Clinton. "I have always hated you, you stupid blank. Time to close the Clinton foundation. No more influence to pedal, Hillary Clinton. You go on. You attack celebrities. Brittany Spears you attack, and then I could just go on and on and on.
"Bernie Sanders, you are a loser, who doesn't understand economics or business. Keep my name out of your mouth. Take your communism to a country that wants it."
SHKRELI: Well, that's what happened, right? I mean, this country rejected socialist and communist policies.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, sure, but your strategy has been to, you know, rather than pull back, to just to pull forward.
SHKRELI: I look at our president-elect. You know, being honest and authentic even if it's imperfect is something that Americans like. I could have easily done all the -- you know, we have hired consultants for millions of dollars that will tell me the right way to look and right way to act in front of news cameras, but at the end of the day, I can only be myself. And that's why I think one of the reasons why Donald Trump is our president-elect.
CARLSON: Did anybody advise? Did you have any advisors who say, you know what, if you really want to rehabilitate your image, go on Twitter and give the finger to Hillary Clinton.
SHKRELI: No one told me that.
CARLSON: Nobody did?
SHKRELI: No. But I think, you know, speaking from the heart is something again, you know -- you have something like Hillary Clinton who is carefully trained, carefully managed your product to be consumed by our electorate and she lost.
And, honestly, Trump, I think, you know, this sort of fake persona that, you know, 90 percent of pharmaceuticals CEOs have.
CARLSON: Right.
SHKRELI: You know, they sort of look and act the part, but the reality is they are 100 times worse than I am.
CARLSON: So you were at the bottom of the media dog pile. A hate fest. It was like that short story the lottery. You were being stoned by the crowd. So I'm sympathetic to that. However, I have to say in cases like yours and in yours specifically where you have someone who takes a product he did not create, added no apparent value to it and then jacks the price up, it does seem like kind of a parasite move.
SHKRELI: Yes. I mean, you know, it's interesting. These big jar companies, they don't look at these drugs any more fondly than you look at the shoes in your closet that you haven't worn in five years and you're ready to throw away. Your old medicines that nobody cares about anymore. And they get passed around from company to company to company looking for a home for tender loving care.
The reason they get passed around is because they are not Viagra. They are not Lipitor. They are not big sellers.
CARLSON: Right.
SHKRELI: These drugs sell almost nothing. And it costs millions of dollars to make a medicine even to make it for one drug I bought. The company stopped making it because it wasn't worth it to them.
CARLSON: Right.
SHKRELI: And the 300 patients that needed this drug to survive, they didn't have anybody that actually wanted to make the pill for them. Just to stamp out a pill. And so we bought that drug. We raised it 20 fold. There was no media celebrity. There was no -- nobody knew who I was that day, the day before or the day after. It was only after -- I have done this about six times. And each time the patients thank me for doing it because they say I would rather have someone make a few dollars and make my pills reliably, maybe continue research in the field, give grants out and do the things that you need to do to be drug company, because when I have this rare disease, only a few hundred people have my illness.