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TRANSCRIPT
December 04, 2016
NEWS PROGRAM
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS HOSTS ABC'S "THIS WEEK" - Part 1
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GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS HOSTS ABC'S "THIS WEEK"
DECEMBER 4, 2016
SPEAKERS: GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC HOST
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT
GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, FMR. DIRECTOR, CIA
MATTHEW DOWD, ABC NEWS SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST
DAVID AXELROD, OBAMA CAMPAIGN CHIEF STRATEGIST
SARA FAGEN, FORMER POLITICAL DIRECTOR FOR GEORGE W. BUSH
ANNOUNCER: Starting right now on THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: Thank you for electing a president who will make America great again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This morning, we are one-on-one with Vice President- elect Mike Pence, fresh off his Thank You Tour with the president- elect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: It's going to be America first, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Trump touting the art of the deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's wonderful to win, you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But is it a win for workers or just bad business?
Plus...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: China is ripping us off.
What China is doing to us is horrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: -- challenging China -- Trump talking to Taiwan.
Was this breach of protocol a dangerous blunder or smart strategy?
And with the world watching, who will Trump tap to be his secretary of State?
Could this man have the inside track?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A very good conversation and we'll see where it goes from here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: We'll ask General David Petraeus.
Should his mishandling of classified information take him out of the running?
The country in transition...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're not going to be divided for long. I've always brought people together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: What's fact, what's fiction, and what's next?
Mike Pence, David Petraeus, both here live.
From ABC News, it's THIS WEEK.
Here now, chief anchor, George Stephanopoulos.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC HOST: Good morning.
Let's get right to it. We are joined by the man leading the Trump transition, Vice President-elect Mike Pence.
Congratulations on your victory.
PENCE: Thank you, George.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And thank you for coming in.
Let's get right to China, that call with the leader of Taiwan.
As far as we know, no president or president-elect has spoken with Taiwan's leader in nearly four decades.
Why did Mr. Trump choose to break that precedent?
PENCE: Well, I'll tell you what, from the morning after the election, we've seen the president-elect engaging the world. He's spoken to more than 50 world leaders and I've spoken to several dozen myself. And he received a courtesy call from the democratically elected president of Taiwan...
STEPHANOPOULOS: It was pre-arranged, wasn't it?
PENCE: -- to congratulate him. Well, it was -- they reached out to offer congratulations, as leaders around the world have and -- and he -- he took the call, accepted her congratulations and -- and good wishes and it was -- it was precisely that.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Did he intend to send the kind of signal it sent?
Because the Chinese government has already complained about this. Have
How did you guys respond to that?
PENCE: Well, I -- I understand some of the controversy in the media about this. But I -- I think...
STEPHANOPOULOS: It's not just the media, it's with the Chinese government.
PENCE: Well, yes, of course. But I would tell you that I think -- I think the American people find it very refreshing the energy that our president-elect is bringing to this whole transition. He's not only -- he's not only bringing together a cabinet at a historic pace for the last 40 years, he's not only assembling a legislative agenda to -- to move forward this country at home and abroad, but he's also been engaging the world.
I think during the course of the transition eight years ago, President Obama, it's reported, spoke to 22 world leaders and President-elect Trump has spoken to...
STEPHANOPOULOS: He did not speak to the leader of Taiwan. That's what I'm trying (INAUDIBLE)...
PENCE: -- more than 50. And I think the American people want -- are encouraged, rather, George, to see that President-elect Trump is -- is taking calls from the world, speaking to the world. They know he's going to be out there advancing America's interests first with that broad-shouldered leadership that's characterized his entire life.
But I think it all begins with relationships and -- and that was a -- that was nothing more than taking a courtesy call of congratulations from the democratically elected leader of Taiwan who...
STEPHANOPOULOS: So no implications for the one China policy?
PENCE: Well, we'll deal with policy after January the 20th. This was a courtesy call.
And plus, I have to tell you, George, it's -- it's a little mystifying to me that President Obama can -- can reach out to a murdering dictator in -- in Cuba in the last year and be hailed as a hero for doing it and President-elect Donald Trump takes a courtesy call from a democratically elected leader in Taiwan and it's become -- it's become something of a controversy, because I think the American people appreciate the fact that -- that our president-elect is taking calls from and reaching out to the world and preparing on day one to lead America on the world stage.
STEPHANOPOULOS: On day one, will he label China a currency manipulator?
PENCE: Well, he said that over the course of the campaign. And the truth of the matter is a lot is going to change in America's economic policies...
STEPHANOPOULOS: So he will?
PENCE: -- not just with regard to China, but with regard to the North American Free Trade Agreement, with regard to -- look, we -- we've been -- America has been losing too much in jobs and economic growth on the world stage. And I think people can count on the fact that -- that President-elect Donald Trump, when he raises his right hand, is going to walk into the Oval Office and he's going to -- he's going to become a champion for Americans on the world stage.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So he will follow through on that promise?
PENCE: Well, he's -- he's going to fight for American jobs and -- and we're going to stop losing to China and to other countries.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Does that mean labeling them a currency manipulator?
PENCE: It -- it will be for the president-elect to decide whether he implements that policy after inauguration. He spoke about that in the course of the campaign.
But look, it's all about a process. He spoke to President Xi in China two weeks ago. They had a great conversation. He's begun the relationship there.
But after January 20, our new president will make decisions about what the policy of the United States will be.
But I promise you, America is going to start winning on world stage again and winning economically and -- and he'll make the right decisions (INAUDIBLE).
STEPHANOPOULOS: So as John Bolton said, he believes that the relationship with China has to be shaken up?
PENCE: Well, I -- I think -- I think the president-elect was very clear during the course of the campaign that we -- we've just been losing to China far too long economically. And it's -- it's time -- the time has come, the American people have elected a president who, not just with regard to China, but with other countries around the world, and even in our hemisphere, that -- that we're going to put American workers and American jobs first and we're going to have a president that makes sure we have trade deals and we advance policies -- economic policies on the world stage that accomplish that.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let's talk about Carrier. You guys got a nice thank you AMB. )...
PENCE: Yes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- when you went to say thank you AMB. ) in Indiana this week for saving those several hundred jobs in the Carrier -- in the Carrier plant.
PENCE: Right.
STEPHANOPOULOS: President-elect Trump has followed that up with a treat about -- a Twitter about the Rexnord Corporation, just a mile down the road from Carrier. He put it out. He said, "Rexnord of Indiana is moving to Mexico and rather viciously firing all of its 300 workers. This is happening all over our country. No more."
So are you now negotiating with Rexnord?
PENCE: Well, what -- what I can tell you is that we had a great day in Indiana on Thursday and Carrier is staying in the United States because Donald Trump was elected president. Plain and simple.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, several hundred jobs are staying, but 1,300 are still going.
PENCE: Well, but look, let's -- I understand the glass is half full mentality of some in the -- in the -- in the national media, George, but this was great news for over 1,000 families in Indiana, who were going to see those jobs go south of the border.
We got -- we got worried in February -- Carrier just announced, after being in Indiana since the 1950s, that they were pulling up stakes and going to Mexico. They were literally going to follow a number of other companies in their industry that had gone to Mexico years ago.
I sat down with them in March and said, can we put together an incentive package, which states always do. Indiana does on a routine basis, to encourage you to stay here?
They said don't even bother. They said we -- the avalanche of regulations coming out of Washington, DC, the taxation, it just -- they said we can't make it happen.
But I was there in the office. It wasn't even a week again the election, the president-elect, in the midst of talking to foreign leaders, assembling a cabinet, advancing a legislative agenda, pulling together a team at a historic pace, he picked up the phone and he called the chairman of the parent company and just said look, we're going to cut taxes, we're going to roll back regulation, we're going to repeal and replace ObamaCare, we're going to -- we're going to make America more competitive for manufacturing and we're going to renegotiate trade deals...
STEPHANOPOULOS: So does he...
PENCE: -- to put American workers first.
And he just simply...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- so does he have to come...
PENCE: -- he simply asked them, would you reconsider leaving our country?
And they said yes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So does he now pick up the phone and call the head of Rexnord?
Does he call all these other companies who are going to move overseas?
PENCE: Well, I think what you're going to see -- and the president-elect will make those decisions on -- on a -- on a day by day basis in the -- in the course of the transition and in the course of the administration.
But what you're seeing emerge here -- and I think it's so exciting for millions of Americans -- you should have seen the emotion on people's faces...
STEPHANOPOULOS: We saw it.
PENCE: -- at the Carrier plant, George. I mean this was -- and I mean I -- it was one of the most emotional experiences that I've had in my public career, the way people reached out, grabbed our president-elect by the hand and just said thank you AMB. ), because they see in him someone who's going to fight for American jobs.
He's going to fight on the world stage in negotiating trade deals. And he's going to come here to Washington, DC and he's going to fight to raised taxes, roll back regulations, repeal and replace ObamaCare and make American manufacturing come back to life.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You say he's going to make these decisions on a -- on a day by day basis.
Isn't that picking winners and losers?
I mean Sarah Palin calls it crony capitalism?
PENCE: No, I -- I don't think it's picking winners and losers at all what -- what -- what the president-elect did with Carrier was simply reach out one American to another and just ask them to reconsider. He told them, we're going to do exactly what we said we would do in this campaign, we're going to make the American economy more competitive, we're going to get tougher and smarter on trade deals. And that was changed circumstances from when they made their decision to leave last February.
And he asked them to reconsider and they did. And I -- I think that the message that that sends across the American economy to businesses that may be considering leaving our country is that things are really changing.
STEPHANOPOULOS: He is...
PENCE: That we've got a president that's going to fight for jobs and fight to bring back the American economy.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And the president-elect is sending that message this morning.
PENCE: I think it's the reason, George, candidly, why he -- he won the heartland so decisively. I mean 30 out of 50 states in this historic mandate election, I mean he won more counties than -- than any candidate on our side since Ronald Reagan, but particularly in the heartland. We've seen one community after another decimated as jobs have been shipped overseas because of more government, more taxes, more regulation coming out of our nation's capital.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But the question is what is the policy going forward?
Is it more incentives like Carrier got or is it punishment?
And President-Elect Trump on Twitter this morning as well, sending out about six or seven tweets. Here's the heart of what he was saying.
He was saying that any business that leaves our country for another country fires its employees, builds a new factory or plant in another country and then thinks it will sell its products back in the U.S. without retribution or consequence is wrong.
There will be a tax on our soon-to-be-strong border of 35 percent for these companies wanting to sell their products, cars, air conditioning units, et cetera, back across the border.
So is it fair to assume that Rexnord, that Ford, which is moving the Ford Focus from Michigan to Mexico, they're all going to be facing this 35 percent tariff?
PENCE: Well, what you're seeing here is a combination of policies.
Number one, is the president-elect -- has already got our team working on Capitol Hill to make sure that we're reducing taxes. We're going to lower the corporate tax rate, repeal and replace ObamaCare.
We're going to roll back, starting on day one, this avalanche of red tape and regulations that's crushing American jobs.
But the other piece of that, to your point, George, is that president-elect is committed to changing America's trade.
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: So he's moving forward on that 35 percent tariff?
PENCE: -- we're going to renegotiate NAFTA. He's already made that clear. Got an agreement from President Pena Nieto to do just that. He's going to -- he's going to put on the table all the tools that are going to take away the advantages of companies that for far too long have been pulling up stakes, leaving American workers behind and then creating products, shipping them back into the --
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: How do you handle that as governor of Indiana?
You've got the happy workers at Carrier; those jobs were saved a mile down the road; 300 workers at Rexnord losing their jobs and now that company is going to be subject to a tariff.
PENCE: Well, I think the way you handle that is we advance policies that are going to apply to everybody equally. We're going to create trade policies that take away the advantages that these multinational corporations have had in moving jobs overseas now for decades.
But we're also going to improve the economic environment here in the United States. We're simply -- with this business man who's become president, will take that oath of office on January the 20th -- we're going to work with the Congress to lower taxes, roll back regulations, repeal and replace ObamaCare and simply make the kind of changes in a broad range of areas -- including education, the president-elect is very passionate about vocational education across the country -- make the kinds of changes that will simply make it possible for American manufacturing to come roaring back in the heartland and all across America.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I want to talk about more of those changes.
One final question on this, President Trump and his family sell goods made overseas.
Will that continue?
Should they lead by example and bring that manufacturing home?
PENCE: Well, you know, the president-elect has been very candid about the fact that, even in the course of his business, he's seen that there's many products that you simply can't buy in the United States because they're not made here anymore.
And he's been very, very open about that. And I think the policies that you're going to see this administration advance are just going to be about bringing jobs back to the United States.
And we do that, we do that by having smarter and tougher trade deals than we've had for a number of decades under successive administrations. But we also do that mostly by creating an environment where the free market can really thrive.
I mean the truth of the matter is high taxes, high regulation, mandates like the taxes in ObamaCare and the rest have been --
STEPHANOPOULOS: Should those jobs come home?
Should they bring those jobs home?
PENCE: I think we'd like to see jobs of every kind come back to the United States. You just saw the recent jobs report came out and the low unemployment rate is in itself deceptive. We saw the labor participation rate drop again. It's the lowest since the year after I got out of high school.
I mean, we have -- we have millions of Americans that are simply out of the workforce. And I'm telling you what, President-Elect Donald Trump and I are going to work our hearts out with this Congress to make America more attractive for jobs of every kind and I think we're going to see this economy come roaring back.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let's talk about more of those promises. You said on Wednesday that you're planning the agenda to keep the promises President-Elect Trump made. One of the most prominent one is this wall on the border, paid for by Mexico. It's still prominent on the Trump website. "Mexico will pay for the wall."
How will that happen?
PENCE: Well, what we're laying out a very ambitious agenda for the Congress. I met again this week with the leaders of the House and the Senate. President-Elect and I were on Capitol Hill within about a week of the election and to do just that. It really will all begin with repealing ObamaCare and setting --
STEPHANOPOULOS: And I want to get to that but first of all, Mexico paying for the wall.
PENCE: Well, we're going to get to the process of ending illegal immigration. It all begins with border security, internal enforcement and building a wall. And --
STEPHANOPOULOS: Can you make Mexico pay for it?
PENCE: I think there's a variety of ways, there's a variety of ways that we can accomplish that. And the president-elect is going to choose the best way forward. We're going to work with the Congress in that regard. Some of it will be negotiation. You know, President Pena Nieto and our president-elect had a very good --
STEPHANOPOULOS: But he ruled out paying for the wall.
PENCE: Well, we -- I know about the tweet. But, you know, in the course of renegotiating NAFTA, there was a -- or agreeing to renegotiate NAFTA, there was an agreement that border security is critical and important. We'll have those conversations.
but you think about the enormous amount of commerce that flows over that border. There's a whole lot of ways and I'm absolutely confident that our president-elect is going to keep his promise to the American people. We're going to secure the border. We're going to build the wall. We're going to end illegal immigration once and for all and we'll find a way to have our neighbors pay for it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And ObamaCare, you mentioned that. "The New York Times" is reporting that you're working with congressional leaders on the strategy to repeal immediately but then delay the replacement. In that "60 Minutes" interview right after the election, President-Elect Trump said they were going to be done simultaneously.
Why the change?
PENCE: Well, I'm not aware there is change.
(LAUGHTER)
STEPHANOPOULOS: So this repeal and delay strategy is not what you're working on?
PENCE: Well, we're working on President-Elect Trump's commitment to repeal and replace ObamaCare. It's all going to begin right out of the gate by repealing this disastrous policy that's been killing jobs.
I mean, it's on track next year to see Americans see an average increase in premiums of 25 percent in states like Arizona, 116 percent. We really believe it'll be vitally important in the early days of the Congress with everything else happening and confirming cabinet appointments that we keep that promise to the American people and, at the very same time, through both executive action and working with congressional leaders and our new leadership at HHS, that we lay out a framework for an orderly transition to replace it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Two- or three-year transition?
PENCE: Well, I think it's going to be a discussion the president-elect will decide on what's acceptable to him. We'll work with members of Congress on that.
But as he said in that speech on ObamaCare in Philadelphia, he wants the American people to know there will be an orderly transition away from this disastrous policy.
But the first thing we have to do is pry the enormous weight of ObamaCare off the national economy. We think that will -- that will create tremendous economic growth in businesses large and small and then setting an orderly transition process in place to capture the power of the free market.
I mean, the president-elect has been very clear, we want to give the American people more choices, the ability to buy health insurance across state lines, use health savings accounts but doing that in a way that doesn't upset the apple cart or create anxiety among Americans about their health care.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Tied to that is what to do about Medicare. President-Elect Trump spoke about that continually through the campaign. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Every Republican wants to do a big number on Social Security, they want to do it on Medicare, they want to do it on Medicaid and we can't do that. And it's not fair to the people that have been paying in for years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANOPOULOS: But the president's nominee for Health Secretary and the Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, you in the past have voted for changing Medicare from moving it from a defined benefit to paying for these subsidies to pay for private insurance.
Is that on the table now?
PENCE: No, the people that are joining our administration are signing up for the president-elect's agenda.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So no changes to Medicare?
PENCE: Well, look, I think President-Elect Trump made it very clear in the course of the campaign that, as president, we're going to keep our promises in Social Security and Medicare.
With regard to Medicaid, though, I will tell you, there's a real opportunity, there's a real opportunity as we repeal and replace ObamaCare to do exactly what the president-elect also said on the campaign, and that is block granting Medicaid back to the states.
Allow states to do what Indiana was able to do, in part in the last couple of years, and that is innovate.
We actually -- we actually have people on Medicaid the first time in the history of the program that actually have to make a monthly contribution to a health savings account to receive full benefits. We want to give states even greater flexibility in innovating and creating the kind of health care solutions that will work for their population.
STEPHANOPOULOS: As I said, President-Elect Trump has been quite active on Twitter, including this week at the beginning of this week, that tweet which I want to show right now, about the popular vote.
And he said, "In addition to winning the electoral college in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally."
That claim is groundless. There's no evidence to back it up.
Is it responsible for a president-elect to make false statements like that?
PENCE: Well, look, I think four years ago the Pew Research Center found that there were millions of inaccurate voter registrations.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes, but the author of this said he -- he has said it is not any evidence about what happened in this election or any evidence of voter fraud.
PENCE: I think what, you know, what is -- what is historic here is that our president-elect won 30 to 50 states, he won more counties than any candidate on our side since Ronald Reagan.
And the fact that some partisans, who are frustrated with the outcome of the election and disappointed with the outcome of the election, are pointing to the popular vote, I can assure you, if this had been about the popular vote, Donald Trump and I have been campaigning a whole lot more in Illinois and California and New York.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And no one is questioning your victory, certainly I'm not questioning your victory. I'm asking just about that tweet, which I want to say that he said he would have won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally. That statement is false. Why is it responsible to make it?
PENCE: Well, I think the president-elect wants to call to attention the fact that there has been evidence over many years of...
STEPHANOPOULOS: That's not what he said.
PENCE: ...voter fraud. And expressing that reality Pew Research Center found evidence of that four years ago.
STEPHANPOULOS: That's not the evidence...
PENCE: ...that certainly his right.
But, you know...
STEPHANOPOULOS: It's his right to make false statements?
PENCE: Well, it's his right to express his opinion as president- elect of the United States.
I think one of the things that's refreshing about our president- elect and one of the reasons why I think he made such an incredible connection with people all across this country is because he tells you what's on his mind.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But why is it refreshing to make false statements?
PENCE: Look, I don't know that that is a false statement, George, and neither do you. The simple fact is that...