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Trump in War of Words with Pope Francis; Apple Has Worked with Government on Security Issues Before; Five Economists Claim Sanders Plan



Government on Security Issues Before; Five Economists Claim Sanders Plan

Doesn't Add Up; Examining Obama Budget; Obama Will Not Attend Scalia

Funeral; Released Guantanamo Detainee Returns to Terrorism; Trump Rally;

Branson to Hold Business Events Around US - Part 1>

Morris, Jillian Melchior, Basil Smikle, Bill Cowan, Jillian Melchior, Basil

Smikle, Sir Richard Branson>

Politics; Polls; Election; Pope Francis; Immigration; Mexico; Terrorism;

Communications; FBI; Apple; Technology; Religion; Budget>


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: For a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful. I'm proud to be a Christian. As a president, I will not allowed Christianity to be consistently attacked and weakened unlike what is now with our current president, OK, believe me.


No leader, especially a religious leader should have the right to question another man's religion or faith. They're using the pope as a pawn and they should be ashamed of themselves. That's the Mexican government. They should be ashamed of themselves for doing so, especially when so many lives are involved and when illegal immigration so rampant and so dangerous and so bad for the United States. OK? Period. That's it.


DEIRDRE BOLTON, RISK & REWARD SHOW HOST: Donald Trump is in a war of words with the pope. So, it is not just about besting other presidential candidates such as Senator Cruz or Jeb Bush.

This is Risk & Reward. I'm Deirdre Bolton.

Pope Francis questioned Donald Trump's Christianity while Trump was visiting the Mexican border, the pope, actually, some strong words. Here they are. "A person who thinks only about building walls and not building bridges is not Christian. I only say that this man is not Christian." This heated exchange started when Donald Trump appeared right here on Fox Business.


TRUMP: Pope is a very political person. I think he doesn't understand the problems our country has. I don't think he understands the danger of the open border that we have with Mexico. And I think Mexico got him to do it because Mexico wants to keep the border just the way it is because they're making a fortune and we're losing.


BOLTON: Donald Trump may have more to say about the pope or immigration or both. We are monitoring a rally happening this hour in Gaffney, South Carolina. We will bring you there live as soon as it starts.

With me now, former presidential candidate, former New York Governor, George Pataki. Governor, it is great to have you here.


BOLTON: So, I have to say this as everybody knows you do openly support Senator Rubio.

PATAKI: Correct.

BOLTON: But I want to ask you with Trump taking on the pope, has he help or hurt his campaign?

PATAKI: Donald Trump the victim, who would have thought it. You know, here is a guy who's demonizing our veterans, Latinos, women, and all of sudden he is a victim. And if you notice in that clip he was reading a well- scripted response.

So, this was not Donald Trump reacting out of true umbrage. This was Donald Trump reading a script because he thinks it's in his political interest. Donald Trump is not a victim. I don't think the pope should have said what he did. You don't question a person...


BOLTON: That's what I was going ask you.

PATAKI: I think the pope was wrong. And I say that as good Catholic.


PATAKI: He is infallible when it comes to religious doctrine, but when it comes to American politics they should be left to the American people.

BOLTON: I was going to say themes like he really got round up and, you know, even the pope has emotions.

PATAKI: Yes. And you know, what is very troubling to me, as Mexico has some of the most restrictive immigration laws in the world. And yet, the target is America.

And I think every single republican candidate; I know Marco Rubio believes we have to secure our border. We have to make sure people come here legally just as Mexico does. So, I don't question Donald Trump's faith, I do question his fitness to be President of the United States.

BOLTON: All right. Which in this case is far more important.

PATAKI: It's far more important.

BOLTON: Governor, Trump said he is going to be so tough on ISIS that the pope would actually want Donald Trump in office. Here is his comment.



TRUMP: When the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows, is ISIS's ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president.


BOLTON: So, you were the Governor of State of New York on September 11th.


BOLTON: You led the state during that attack. What do you make of Trump's comments during this context?

PATAKI: I think they're just ridiculous. It's Trump reality TV campaign show running for president that is going to come to its inevitable conclusion, which is he is going to be fired by the American people and hopefully by the republican primary voters.

So, I think it's just wrong. We know New York is a target. We know the civilized world is a target of ISIS. And the person who's laid out the most constructive plan as to how to deal with ISIS is Marco Rubio. What is Donald Trump's plan? He loves Vladimir Putin. He doesn't bother when Vladimir Putin weighs in on American elections. But it does when the pope does.

It's all about Trump. I don't believe that. I believe it's about the American people the future of this country and that's why I'm for Marco Rubio.

BOLTON: OK. Governor, hold that thought. We just want to let our viewers know that this Saturday we're going to be here. We're going to have a live coverage of the South Carolina primary. Also, the Nevada democratic primary. So, that all starts at 6 p.m. Eastern Time. Lou Dobbs, Neil Cavuto, they will bring you those results as soon as they come in.

So, those events are going to be super charged. So, is the latest conversation about privacy and security. There are split opinions on whether Apple should unlock the iPhone of one of the San Bernardino shooters.

A 2015 court case shows that Apple has worked with the government before. In fact, the company unlocked iPhones for the Feds 70 times in the past. The company is stopping now because it may tarnish the brand, other reasons as well. Fox Business on top of it last night.


ELIZABETH MACDONALD, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: That prior to 2014, Apple was helping the government to crack into its iPhones to catch suspects. And that, you know, they work with banks to do terrorism financing investigation.


BOLTON: They certainly do.

MACDONALD: Why is Silicon Valley not involved?


BOLTON: So, Governor, I'm going back to your 9/11.


BOLTON: You steered the state along with Rudy Giuliani and Michael Bloomberg who was incumbent at that time. What do you make, I mean, should Apple just say yes to this one particular case although they say they can't? How would you view?


PATAKI: You know, it's not a -- it's not a question of what your opinion is, because a court has issued an order. A United States Federal Court has told Apple they have to reveal this information, assist the FBI in dealing with the San Bernardino terrorists.

Apple's value, yes, they're concerned about reputational risks, but their value hinges on the rule of law in protection of their intellectual property. If another company says, well, we're going to ignore a federal order because we don't like it. Because of it might harm our company, what would Apple think?

Apple has to comply with the law. And I think broader than that, I think the Silicon Valley has to understand that we're concerned about privacy. But when the federal government, when the FBI goes out and gets a court approved warrant because they believe that there is an imminent threat of a terrorist carrying out an attack against Americans, that they have got to comply with that warrant.

BOLTON: So, Governor, let me ask you, when you say complying with the law, maybe there needs to be a new law, in the case that a law could be passed that specific to these kind of situations. So, in other words, Apple doesn't feel like it's betraying its customer base.

PATAKI: Right.

BOLTON: Or it also doesn't feel like it's creating some sort of dangerous precedent where it could be used in sillier instances like a divorce case. I'm just making that up.

PATAKI: Right. I totally understand. And Apple is right to be concerned about the privacy of its users but not in the face of a court order. It's not Apple's decision that there has to be a different law. The Fed...


BOLTON: No, I heard you. The Fed ask to give it. That's it.

PATAKI: ... well, no. If the court says directs you to do it, you have to do it. Not because the government asked but because the court has ordered.

Now, ideally, I agree with you, a new law specifically dealing with encryption of encoded material that on iPhones or on computers would solve the problem. But given our Congress and this president and its lame duck status, I mean, that's going to be hard to achieve.

So, in the meantime, the FBI and this Federal Court believes that the existing law gives them the authority. It's up to Apple to follow the law when a court orders it.

BOLTON: All right. Clear and simple. Glad to see you.

PATAKI: Good to see you.

BOLTON: Thank you so much. Governor Pataki with me there.

Security experts estimate that Apple could create the software needed to unlock the iPhone owned by one of the San Bernardino shooters in one afternoon.

A tech expert Zulfikar Ramzan is with me right now. You are the chief technology officer for RSA, so that is the nation's one of them anyway, oldest computer security companies.

So, I know the company does you contract work for the Department of Justice. In your opinion, is it possible for Apple to comply with what the court has ordered?

ZULFIKAR RAMZAN, RSA CHIEF TECHNOLOGY OFFICER: So, I believe it's technically feasible for Apple to comply with the court order. But just because something is technically feasible it doesn't mean it should happen.

And ultimately, it may be technically feasible for me to ride my bicycle without a helmet on a busy street and run through a light, whether it's a good idea or not it's a completely different story. So, I think we have to separate those two issues of technical feasibility from the question of whether or not it's a good idea.

BOLTON: So, Zulfikar, you are obviously in the tech community. There have been numerous other tech execs who have come out in support of Apple CEO, Tim Cook. Notably, the CEO of Microsoft. Notably the CEO of Alphabet Google saying they sport his decision because it would set a very dangerous precedent. What is your take?

RAMZAN: Well, you know, in RSA every day we're trying to deal with some of the most pernicious threats that affect our customers on a daily basis. And one thing we realized is that if we weaken a system in any way, shape or form, to maybe even allow a good person in there is a huge risk that that same weakness can be then exploited by a bad person.

It's not just about giving the keys of the kingdom to your friends. The more keys you give out, the more likely that those keys can fall into the wrong hands. And that is something we have to be very, very cognizant of.

In many ways, I think what Apple is concerned with opening up maybe a Pandora's Box if you will, or perhaps more appropriately a Pandora's iPhone in this particular case.

BOLTON: That's what Tim Cook seems to be implying. Zulfikar Ramzan, thank you so much for your time. Glad to have you with us.

NSA chief Michael Rogers says last year's deadly attacks in Paris would not have happened if the terrorists did not have encrypted communication tools. We will tell you how that relates to the newest for Apple.

Also, Donald Trump hosting a rally in South Carolina. He may have more to say about the pope. We will bring you the event as soon as it starts.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, I saw that the pope said mass today in Mexico. And as many as 200,000 people were expected to cross the U.S.-Mexico border to hear him speak. And the pope pulled off his mask and said "gotcha, now you're back in Mexico. Adios, amigos."



MICHAEL ROGERS, NSA CHIEF DIRECTOR: Is it harder for us to generate the kind of knowledge that I would like against some of these targets? Yes. Is that directly tied in part to the changes that they're making in their communications profiles? Yes. Does encryption make it much more difficult for to us execute our mission? Yes.


BOLTON: NSA chief Michael Rogers saying that last year's deadly attacks in Paris would not have happened if terrorists did not have encrypted communications which helped them obviously avoid detection.

Protesters out today in San Francisco siding with Apple's CEO Tim Cook who says it's not possible to unlock the iPhone of one of San Bernardino shooters.


TIM COOK, APPLE CEO: You should have the ability to protect it and the only way we know how to do that is to encrypt it. Why is that? It's because if there is a way to get in, then somebody will find a way in. There have been people that suggested that we should have a back door. But the reality is if you put a back door in, that back door is for everybody, for good guys and bad guys.


BOLTON: And a lot iPhone users agree with that statement.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What Apple is doing is standing up for all of our security, a world in which our data is safe and that we can count on our data being safe is important to millions of people around the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you create a golden key, a back door to every iPhone that is something so valuable, that you could imagine or it's easy to imagine malicious hackers, or identity thieves, or really any number of people trying to gain access to it.

And it's so valuable that it's not a question of if it's going to be, if someone else is going to wind up being in possession of it. It's a question of when that happens, how much damage will be done.


BOLTON: Reason Magazine Katherine Mangu-Ward is with me now. Katherine, glad to have you here. So, we see this tension between tech and governments. How are we going to figure this out?

KATHERINE MANGU-WARD, REASON MAGAZINE MANAGING EDITOR: You know, I think the approach that Apple has been taking is fantastic, and it's a rare moment actually to see a company sticking up for what's right and, also, being pretty explicit about the fact at that they're doing in part to protect their own bottom line.

Apple have said explicitly, listen, our customers need to trust us and they are not going to trust us if we hand over data even if you say it's just this once.

BOLTON: And they've also said that terrorists will find other ways to communicate. I want to ask you, though, for your reaction to this breaking news. Because Senate Intelligence Committee chairman, Richard Burr, working on a proposal that would create criminal penalties for companies that don't comply with court orders to decipher encrypted communications.

Now this is according to The Wall Street Journal, but is this necessary or is this part of the solution?

MANGU-WARD: You know, I think the idea that this is a criminal offense is part of the probably a much broader issue about over criminalization. It's absurd to think that Tim Cook should be in jail standing up for a completely reasonable legal principle of privacy. The idea that somehow this is an occasion to use the brute force of the criminal justice system strikes me as absurd.

BOLTON: All right. Our own in-house legal eagle expert Judge Andrew Napolitano weighed in earlier on Fox & Friends. Here is his clip.


ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: I'm convinced it is a, it is a business decision. So, what can the FBI do? The FBI can hire Apple engineers away. The FBI can hire the brightest people in the country to figure out how to do this but it can't conscript Apple.


NAPOLITANO: The government can't take you. Sandra, you will work for us tomorrow whether you want to or not. The FBI went to court in secret without Apple's lawyers there. So, even though there is legitimate court order signed by a federal judge, it is probably invalid because Apple was denied due process, basically their day in court.


BOLTON: So, that brings up an interesting legal angle, does it not?

MANGU-WARD: Sure. And I think the judge is absolutely right here. The idea that somehow it's appropriate or that we should consider it, you know, a reasonable way to approach this very complex question that the government just goes to court and says, Apple, you work for us now.

You know, I think that's clearly a dangerous precedent to set. And, when the Fed say as they are saying in this case, oh, it is just this once. We're going to ask you, it's very important...


BOLTON: Right. For just the case we're having right now.

MANGU-WARD: ... for terrorism, just this once. You know, never believe the government when they say it's just this once.

BOLTON: I never agree with anyone. All right. Katherine Mangu-Ward, I hope you come back. Great discussion. Thank you very much.

MANGU-WARD: Thank you.

BOLTON: Donald Trump hosting another rally this hour in South Carolina. We are going to be bringing you there right when it starts. He may have more to say about the pope.

Here are Trump's comments from earlier.


TRUMP: The pope is being told that Donald Trump is not a nice person. OK? Donald Trump is a very nice person. And I'm a very -- I am a very gnice person.


And I'm a very good Christian because the pope said something to the effect that maybe Donald Trump isn't Christian, OK? And he's questioning my faith. I was very surprised to see it, but I am a Christian. I'm proud of it.


BOLTON: With me now, Fox News religion contributor, Father Jonathan Morris.


BOLTON: OK. So, Father, so glad to see you, first and foremost.

MORRIS: Thank you, Deirdre.

BOLTON: What do you make of this? I mean, Donald Trump is fighting publicly with the pope?

MORRIS: Hey, I understand why he would, you know, go back after the pope with the one -- he didn't start it because, it was the journalist who asked the question, right? But, I think the pope actually made a mistake here and I think knowing him, and knowing the Vatican, I think he is going to clarify or apologize tomorrow for not saying that he believes that his values on immigration are unchristian, because he does.

Mass deportation of 12 million without thinking about families or anything else, that's I believe, immoral. I believe it is unchristian. I think the pope does as well. But, the pope said something that I think he will regret, or not regret just kind of look say, oh, I didn't mean to say that. I think what will say is...

BOLTON: Commented on the person, not the ideas.

MORRIS: What he said was, if he said that, if Donald Trump said these things that the journalist said, well then he is not a Christian. The pope has known...


BOLTON: And I think that he is not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

MORRIS: ... that he did know, benefit of the doubt that he didn't say it.

BOLTON: Right. Exactly. I feel like does give everybody a little wiggle room.

MORRIS: But even if he said those things, if he said baptized Christian according to the theology of the pope he is Christian. He might not be a good one. None of us are good Christians. But you know what, that, you know, to say that he is not a Christian...


BOLTON: We try.

MORRIS: We try.


MORRIS: Right?

BOLTON: The effort.

MORRIS: So, he could have said, oh, I think his values on this issue or this policy is unchristian, but not, if he said this he is not a Christian.

BOLTON: Father, I have to ask you before we go, there are a lot of people who are saying just look at Vatican. There is a wall around it. Why is the pope not connecting with these ideas?

MORRIS: Fair enough. Of, first of all, that was built in the middle ages. It wasn't Pope Francis; he was like, oh, my gosh. I'm afraid of ISIS, let's build the -- you know, he didn't do that, OK? And if any, if he were dare to knock down those walls, every...


BOLTON: Archaeologists.

MORRIS: ... archaeologists, everyone would completely -- right. And to be fair, anybody can walk into the Vatican. It is called St. Peter's Square. That is the Vatican. It's not 100 percent covered by walls. You can go into the Vatican.

According to Donald Trump he is going to send 12 million people away, just like that, no questions asked. Get out of here. If you broke the law, get out of here. Hey, the government, the United States government under both parties has for years said, hey, we're giving you this tacit invitation to come over work. We're going to have the porous border. Once you get over here we're going to give you a job.

BOLTON: So, it's free, let's have our own problems.

MORRIS: Of course. So, in other words, you have a responsibility to the injustice not only to the American people but to the immigrants who have come over here illegally.

BOLTON: Father Jonathan Morris, please come back.

MORRIS: Thank you.

BOLTON: Plenty to talk about.

MORRIS: Sorry that I'm all excited. If I wind up in Vatican jail tomorrow morning I would ask you come bail me out.


BOLTON: We will come get you out. I was just going to say, I'll make you a cake with a file in it.

MORRIS: That would be great. At least in the Vatican they serve pasta in jail. I'm pretty sure.

BOLTON: All right. Father Jonathan Morris. Great to see you.

Do not forget to tune into Fox Business this Saturday. We are here. We have live coverage of the republican South Carolina primary, Nevada democratic primary. It all starts at 6 p.m. Eastern. Lou Dobbs and Neil Cavuto they are going to be bringing you the results as soon as they come in.

We are waiting for Donald Trump. He is going to probably have more to say about the pope. So, we will bring you that event live right when it happens.

In the meantime, billionaire Richard Branson is going to be joining me with a new announcement. Find out, what it is, first on Fox Business. That is right when we come back.

Also, we are going to tell you about a new poll that shows that Senator Sanders won big against all republican contenders.


BERNIE SANDERS, (D) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe that public colleges and universities should be tuition-free. Tuition-free. Tuition- free. Tuition-free.


BOLTON: Five top left-leaning economists coming out and saying that Senator Sanders's plan does not add up. We are going to be joined by a former Reagan economic advisor, Art Laffer with his view next.


BOLTON: The new Quinnipiac poll says voters back Senator Sanders over republican candidates by a margin of 4 to 10. That is in the presidential match up.

The Vermont Senator would beat out Donald Trump 48 percent to 42 percent in this hypothetical poll. The republican contender who comes to closest to beating Sanders is John Kasich who trail Sanders 45 to 41 percent.

My political power panel is here with their thoughts. National Review political reporter, Jillian Melchior, democratic strategist, Basil Smikle. Welcome to you both. Jillian, is this poll realistic? I feel like there are a lot of abnormalities

JILLIAN MELCHIOR, NATIONAL REVIEW POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes. I mean, I think there is a lot of goodwill for Sanders right now. Hillary Clinton not being honest. All these scandals surrounding her. I think people are just open to an alternative and particularly in an election where you have candidates like Trump running who have such high unlikability. I can definitely see this being realistic.

BOLTON: Basil, if you look at the same poll with Hillary versus the other candidates, how worried should Hillary Clinton be about the fact that the only republican who would not beat her is Donald Trump.

BASIL SMIKLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, listen, I don't think she should be worried per se. We've always believed that even if, you know, if anybody would ask me I would have told you this is going to be a really tough race, not just in the democratic primary but even up against an unnamed republican.

But the truth to the matter is that as we get closer and closer and as I think voters start looking at the folks that are running and their potential solutions for the country. I think that Hillary Clinton's points of view and perspective is going to win at the end of the day. I don't think she is scandal driven. And I think the issue here is experience.

MELCHIOR: You don't think she is scandal driven?

SMIKLE: I don't think she is scandal driven. I wouldn't say that that I wouldn't say that.


BOLTON: Let me ask you back to some numbers...


BOLTON: ... because that is debatable. And I want to get to these figures. Because five left-leaning economists say there are problems with the spending plan of the democratic socialist Senator Sanders.

Austan Goolsbee says the numbers don't remotely add up. The former chairman of Obama's council says the plan is like rainbows and magic flying puppies with winning lotto tickets to their colors.

So, Jillian, how much does it hurt Senator Sanders' campaign to have respected and, you know, even left-leaning economists target his plan?

MELCHIOR: Well, I think they're completely right. But what we've already seen with this election cycle is that so little of it I guess is rooted in reality. I mean, we have Donald Trump saying things that are completely unrealistic all the time and people are eating it up. So, I think Bernie Sanders is following in that same trend. Of course there is no way that he can keep these promises but they're popular and they're selling right now, so I think he'll keep making them.

BOLTON: OK. Hold those thoughts. We are going to continue the conversation in a few minutes.

We just want to remind our viewers that John Stossel is going to be taking a deep dive into the remaining republican field reading out his winners and losers. He is going to be joining Risk & Reward tomorrow to preview it.

Trump may have more to say about the pope. We are going to bring you his events live as soon as he starts speaking.

Also, President Obama's record-setting $4 trillion budget includes some budget cuts. One traveling to anyone living in the city.

General McInerney told me what he thought about the proposed cuts to urban counterterror program.


THOMAS MCINERNEY, RETIRED U.S. AIR FORCE: 2016 is a very vulnerable year for us. Look what happened in Paris; look at what happened in Chattanooga, look what happened with the Russian airliner. The signs are out there. They are flashing red, so I don't understand why the president went from 600 million down to 320 million, even though he put 139 million into other programs. But that money is designed to focus on cities, particularly like New York City, which is our most vulnerable city. So, I just cannot understand it.